TWAW on R4 In Touch - usual sob story

[1stWorldProblems]

Peter White is sounding quite sceptical by BBC standards and asked Natalie if he had ever had a negative experience in male spaces but didn't get an answer.

Otherwise same old same old - assigned at birth, can't use mens spaces as will be questioned as to why he's in there (as they'd be seen as a woman) and how rights have been taken from them by the Supreme Court 🥱

DH & I shouting at the radi. 2x DD shouting at us to keep it down as they can't hear the TV / know it all inside it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002grs9?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Agree, and some men are more vulnerable than others, yet we don't measure men's vulnerabllity and then allow some to use women's facilities and services.

The difference is the desire to use women's services, and that, for some people, is more important than provision of single sex spaces.

Thanks for sharing these links, I’m not a statistician by any means but even I can see that they don’t prove that Trans women are more at risk of harm than women.

However, the authors of the study do admit its limitations, an important one of which is:

"First, there are limitations regarding the study’s measurement instruments. In particular, experiences of violence relied on a single-item measure, increasing the likelihood that this item inaccurately represents the concept it aims to capture"

So, from this study, the term "violence" could be interpreted very differently by different people when they opted-in to take part in this study.

Hate crimes? Well, obviously women as class with a ‘protected characteristic’ under the EA suffer from precisely none of those because misogynistic harassment and abuse isn’t classified as such. Probably because it’s so utterly normalised.

Sharing these studies also shows the importance of being able to collect accurate data.
Various interpretations of Self ID have meant that some ‘data’ is now completely inaccurate.

Interestingly, I think I can spell out in full the insults bellowed at women- bitch, cunt, slut…

I suspect I’d be deleted if I wrote Tr*y in full, even if it wasn’t directed at anyone.

That’s a very odd story. Accidentally poked an eye out, twice? My mum always used to warn us we’d ‘have someone’s eye out with that if we weren’t careful!’. We must have been very careful as it never happened.

In a way we are an echo chamber, in that everyone here believes in biological reality. Similarly, I gather the various astronomy talkboards don't admit people who believe in astrology, and the UK government's vaccine network reprehensibly doesn't include anyone who thinks that Bill Gates is using vaccines to inject us all with microchips. Shocking, isn't it?

I wonder if when you announce your transition you’re issued with a copy of the Mirror of Erised. It would explain a lot.

Thank you for the two links.

Unfortunately, I do not think they assist.

The 'study' you refer to asks, "To what extent do trans people and cisgender LGB people experience different levels of discrimination and violence?" This does not address your claim regarding the difference between the comparative risks faced by transwomen and women.

The 'study' [my bolding]: "The EU LGBTI Survey II (FRA, Citation2020), collected in 2019, is the largest cross-national survey on the experiences of lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and intersex (LGBTI) people across Europe. Deployed as an online, anonymous, opt-in survey, participants were recruited via both online and offline channels in 30 countries. Participants completed the questionnaire in their native language (for more information on the translation process, see FRA, Citation2020). The sample consisted of self-identified LGBTI people aged 15 or older..."

Even if this were what you call a "good" study, there is no comparison/control to show the difference between transwomen and women.

Your other link, the CPS "watching brief" states

• Research indicates that 62% - 73% of transgender people have experienced harassment and violence because they were identified as transgender. This included verbal abuse, threatening behaviour, physical and sexual assault.

The percentages mentioned here will be vastly inflated by the inclusion of experience of [undefined] "verbal abuse" - as this will almost certainly include misgendering (otherwise known as correctly identifying the sex of an individual). Does this come under your definition of 'harm'?

There is no control. For your assertion to work, what evidence do you have that fewer than 62% - 73% of women have experienced harassment and violence because they were identified as women?

Neither link evidences that transwomen are at a greater risk of harm than women, which is what you claimed.

We really need more reaction buttons. I've already posted about wanting one for 'get a grip'. 'Don't be silly' would be a good one too.

Well transwomen are more at risk of being misgendered than women are. Maybe that’s the sort of harm Natalie is talking about.

If we’re talking about the risk of being beaten up or killed- Natalie is at increased risk because Natalie is male, and male on male violence is more common than any other type of violence.

If we’re talking about sexual violence then I think Natalie is wrong, and that women are at greater risk than men. Likewise domestic violence.

As others have pointed out, statistics reporting high numbers of murders of transwomen are often based on figures from parts of the world where a high number of trans identifying men are involved in prostitution and as everybody knows, prostituted people are sadly very vulnerable indeed.

I don’t believe I’ve seen any evidence that in the UK transwomen are at greater risk of harm than women are.

Given that the conversation was about the use of single sex spaces such as public toilets or changing rooms, I would guess that the risks Natalie was referring to were the risks of violence or sexual assault in these spaces. Natalie obviously has a better chance of defending himself than the average woman does, because he went through male puberty and will be stronger than most women.

Interesting that Natalie said he feels he is at risk in both men and women’s spaces. In which case, surely using spaces allocated for people with disabilities would be his best option, especially as he has a disability and is entitled to use those spaces.

That's a very odd story indeed.

And that would be why we lost the laugh reaction! It worked well for all the other things we wanted to say, like ‘Don’t be silly’ and ‘Get a grip!’.

Ok it’s slightly more complicated than two freak accidents. Makes a lot more sense.

metro.co.uk/2021/05/25/trans-woman-blinded-in-accident-hasnt-seen-post-transition-reflection-14641463/amp/

Jfc. You people.

I wondered if that was the one too, although there do seem to be plenty of blind transwomen out there to educate us.

What about blind women, who might be both afraid and confused to hear a male voice in a female only space? Does Natalie have any concern for them (he clearly has no concern for women who aren’t blind)?

Of the many, many things that irritated me from this programme, the first was that Peter White (whose broadcasting I've enjoyed for many years) said right at the start that they weren't intending to go over all the trans arguments - and yet the rest of the programme just did exactly that.

The second was the false concern about butch women being challenged in the women's loos. No TRA or ally ever gave a single shiny shit about butch women until the Supreme Court judgement, and I simply don't believe there's been an uptick of challenges to actual women - and if there were, they wouldn't be to butch women, since there's generally very few points of similarity in the appearance of butch women with men who are attempting to present in a feminised way.

Lots else that irritated me, but those were the two lowlights.

There are plenty of disabled toilets. Use one of those. They are not assigned to sex. Problem solved.

IIRC TW are the safest demographic in Scotland. There were some official figures on violence against TW which reported only two instances, both of which were the TW going out drinking with a group of mates, having a row with them and getting into a fight.

If you listen to the piece, Natalie says "I've only really come out and been living properly in my assigned gender for about two and a half, three years"

So, I noticed that a person I follow on Twitter made this point with regard to Natalie's situation:

I assume that the man being interviewed used male spaces up until 3 years ago when he “came out as transgender”, but now life is much harder for him as he’s expected to…use male spaces?

Ah, but that would be using logic, wouldn’t it? And that’s very bad….

Why use logic when emotion will do the job?

Or something. 😬

Very odd. Completely unconnected I imagine, but I'm reminded of this woman (described in an interesting article about ethics from 2015)

https://bioethicstoday.org/blog/can-clinicians-maim-healthy-organs-the-case-of-jewel-shuping/#

Eta just seen the update. As he was already partially sighted two accidents that cost the rest of his sight is much more plausible and his childhood seems to have been extremely difficult. I'm leaving the article up because although now a derail the ethics article is still interesting although I'm removing the fetish comment.