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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Custody officer job withdrawn for GC beliefs - Gribbon (SP legal team) is his solicitor

1000 replies

InterrobangsArePureBias · 02/08/2025 11:12

I wonder how many more of such actions will be launched. To adapt Jimmy Doyle’s phrase, “the spectacle of this nation’s [lanyard classes] enforcing moral auto-lobotomy as a condition of entry to [employment]”.

A prison custody officer who was sacked for saying he would not address male-born transgender inmates as ‘she’ or ‘her’ has launched legal action against one of the UK’s largest security firms.
Army veteran David Toshack, 50, was dismissed by GEOAmey during a training course only days before taking up a role as a prison custody officer (PCO) at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court.
The father of three told a safeguarding workshop that he would not be comfortable using a transgender inmates’ preferred gender pronouns and expressed his belief that a man could not become a woman.
It sparked a horrified reaction from bosses at the firm, which employs thousands of justice workers across the UK, who said his views were against the law and company policy.

He said: ‘I’m just a normal, working class person who’s never been in trouble with the law before, not got a criminal record, lived a good life. I’ve been prepared to go and fight and die for my country, and then I have come back here and been told that there’s certain things you can’t think or can’t say.’

https://archive.is/bxjqC

Original story about David Toshack in Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14963309/Prison-custody-officer-sacked-refusing-call-male-born-trans-prisoners-her.html

I was sacked for refusing to call trans prisoners 'she', says officer

A prison custody officer who was sacked for saying he would not address male-born transgender inmates as 'she' or 'her' has launched legal action against one of the UK's largest security firms.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14963309/Prison-custody-officer-sacked-refusing-call-male-born-trans-prisoners-her.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
MyAmpleSheep · 29/01/2026 17:34

SternJoyousBeev2 · 29/01/2026 17:16

MM kept banging on about policy and the law. If the question on the PER is a binary option and relates to sex then DT would not be unreasonable to answer the question honestly. MM was also quoting SOPs regarding the PER and I am sure I heard the words ‘accurate’ and ‘accurately’ in relation to completing the form. I didn’t hear anything to indicate that the M/F question related to ‘affirmed gender’ ( my eyes are rolling out of the back of my head’ ) or instructions in what to tick, only references to pronouns. I might have misheard as MM was getting on my nerves so I did lift was headphones off a few times.

That flies, up until the point his supervisor says "David, you're filling these forms in. They don't want biological sex - they want you to put whatever the prisoner says they are."

If his answer is "my conscience won't let me do that", then he's not employable there.

In terms of completing a form, "accurate" and "accurately" mean only and exactly what the organization that asked for the form to be filled in - the SPS or GA - says they mean.

Tunnocksmilkchocolatemallow · 29/01/2026 18:23

MyAmpleSheep · 29/01/2026 17:34

That flies, up until the point his supervisor says "David, you're filling these forms in. They don't want biological sex - they want you to put whatever the prisoner says they are."

If his answer is "my conscience won't let me do that", then he's not employable there.

In terms of completing a form, "accurate" and "accurately" mean only and exactly what the organization that asked for the form to be filled in - the SPS or GA - says they mean.

Again, policy does not trump the law. That includes in recording information. They must record sex under their PSED and under the SC ruling this must be sex not self ID gender.

BettyBooper · 29/01/2026 18:32

MyAmpleSheep · 29/01/2026 17:34

That flies, up until the point his supervisor says "David, you're filling these forms in. They don't want biological sex - they want you to put whatever the prisoner says they are."

If his answer is "my conscience won't let me do that", then he's not employable there.

In terms of completing a form, "accurate" and "accurately" mean only and exactly what the organization that asked for the form to be filled in - the SPS or GA - says they mean.

I realise this is going a bit off point and not for this case, but if a prisoner came in straight from police station, no priors, serious offence and is remanded -

If the only info recorded is preferred gender rather than sex, I can't see where (having tried) the SPS / receiving governor could know that the person coming to them is not, in fact, the sex that is recorded on the PER.

Policy says that PER must be filled in accurately.

Policy also says that trans prisoners must be placed according to biological sex initially for assessment.

But how will that happen if GeoAmey staff are recording F instead of M? Someone somewhere has to mention that they're trans.

MyAmpleSheep · 29/01/2026 18:55

Tunnocksmilkchocolatemallow · 29/01/2026 18:23

Again, policy does not trump the law. That includes in recording information. They must record sex under their PSED and under the SC ruling this must be sex not self ID gender.

The PSED applies to organizations through its policies. In no way could a rogue employee claim their conduct was contrary to policy in a solo attempt to meet their own intepretation of a PSED as a defence against dismissal. It just wouldn't fly.

More particularly, the law about PSED doesn't stipulate how an individual form is filled in and an ET is never going to say that it does.

Tunnocksmilkchocolatemallow · 29/01/2026 19:01

More particularly, the law about PSED doesn't stipulate how an individual form is filled in and an ET is never going to say that it does.

The law about PSED is the Equality Act and the Supreme Court has already ruled that sex must be recorded for PSED purposes, not gender, and that sex means biological sex.

MyAmpleSheep · 29/01/2026 19:06

Tunnocksmilkchocolatemallow · 29/01/2026 19:01

More particularly, the law about PSED doesn't stipulate how an individual form is filled in and an ET is never going to say that it does.

The law about PSED is the Equality Act and the Supreme Court has already ruled that sex must be recorded for PSED purposes, not gender, and that sex means biological sex.

If the Equality Act 2010 had a clause in part 11 that said "Not withstanding other considerations in this Act, David Toshack will correctly record the sex of each prisoner on every form he completes" you would have a valid point.

There are a million and one other ways that GA and the SPS can claim the PSED can be met, and no first-tier employment tribunal is going to micro-manage the level of detail about what an employee has to do as part of the duties of filling in a single form to overrule a company policy.

Tunnocksmilkchocolatemallow · 29/01/2026 19:31

MyAmpleSheep · 29/01/2026 19:06

If the Equality Act 2010 had a clause in part 11 that said "Not withstanding other considerations in this Act, David Toshack will correctly record the sex of each prisoner on every form he completes" you would have a valid point.

There are a million and one other ways that GA and the SPS can claim the PSED can be met, and no first-tier employment tribunal is going to micro-manage the level of detail about what an employee has to do as part of the duties of filling in a single form to overrule a company policy.

They can not meet PSED without recording sex. The Supreme Court has already ruled on that. They can also record gender if they have a legitimate purpose covered by GDPR. There is no legitimate purpose to a field labelled ‘sex’ containing nonsense information.

SternJoyousBeev2 · 29/01/2026 19:49

MyAmpleSheep · 29/01/2026 17:34

That flies, up until the point his supervisor says "David, you're filling these forms in. They don't want biological sex - they want you to put whatever the prisoner says they are."

If his answer is "my conscience won't let me do that", then he's not employable there.

In terms of completing a form, "accurate" and "accurately" mean only and exactly what the organization that asked for the form to be filled in - the SPS or GA - says they mean.

I get that, I really do. But I want the GEO Amey staff to have to justify themselves publicly. As I said earlier, win or lose this is another example of utter madness and shining light on the madness will make more people take notice.

MyAmpleSheep · 29/01/2026 19:57

Tunnocksmilkchocolatemallow · 29/01/2026 19:31

They can not meet PSED without recording sex. The Supreme Court has already ruled on that. They can also record gender if they have a legitimate purpose covered by GDPR. There is no legitimate purpose to a field labelled ‘sex’ containing nonsense information.

Edited

There is no legitimate purpose to a field labelled ‘sex’ containing nonsense information.

I totally agree with you. But for the purposes of an ET it's essentially irrelevant whether there's a purpose for the field or not.

I will be delighted to be proved wrong and have the judge dig into the fields on all the relevant forms and whether a PCO has to fill them in or not, and if so, how. I just can't see it happening.

AnSolas · 29/01/2026 19:58

Tunnocksmilkchocolatemallow · 29/01/2026 18:23

Again, policy does not trump the law. That includes in recording information. They must record sex under their PSED and under the SC ruling this must be sex not self ID gender.

@Tunnocksmilkchocolatemallow · Today 19:31
Again, policy does not trump the law. That includes in recording information. They must record sex under their PSED and under the SC ruling this must be sex not self ID gender.

That is a GA problem.
It only becomes a DT problem if he is a open to blame if he records the data within a PSED reporting system.

If the M/F section is not classifed as "ask subject if they want M or F ticked" within the training then DT can say his understanding of the 2 options had to be biological is supported by the SC.

imo head of a pin analysis 😁
Its a what is his role and what is the form used for fuctionally as fair processing of data subjects data by using DTs collected data (eyes) has to be disproved /proved.

@BettyBooper · Today 18:32
If the only info recorded is preferred gender rather than sex, I can't see where (having tried) the SPS / receiving governor could know that the person coming to them is not, in fact, the sex that is recorded on the PER.
Policy says that PER must be filled in accurately.
Policy also says that trans prisoners must be placed according to biological sex initially for assessment.
But how will that happen if GeoAmey staff are recording F instead of M? Someone somewhere has to mention that they're trans.

Thats my point.
In the TIF case someone failed to correctly record sex or did not record her sex at all but recorded a (assumed) gender.

Post intake had her sex not been discovered and she had been placed in general population she could been placed in a shared cell if there was overcrowding

@SternJoyousBeev2 · Today 17:05
MM has not (yet) proved that the document in question only had a "gender" rather than sex option
I really hope DH asks the GEO Amey witnesses exactly what data is being captured by the M/F tick boxes and what the reason would be for collecting that data.

That is a CH question or whoever trained on the PER.

This is key along with when it was covered on the training.

》》 If it is not documented it never happened ...

MM jumped up and down on that point.

GA is claiming DT did all the training.

DEI came up and he said nothing.

None of the other trainers documented his attitude to DEI or a pronoun problem.

How was the training managed?

Did they cover Data Protection?
They were transporting people accused of anything from child rape and organised crime.
And these are peole from the community DT lived in.

Was DT taught and understand how to fill in the PER?
If so when?

Did the prison visit involve managing high risk events and were OMG events discussed?

If this or a near version happened somebody is telling a "it happened because we documented it" post WeFuckedUp version of events.

MyrtleLion [28/1/26 11:44 - 12:09]
DH - did you go to visit a prison
DT - we went for restraint training, ..
DH - who was your supervisor?
DT - Chris Hutton who was leading training
DH - so what is this document
DT - it's like a workbook to mark progress, what did you do in that week, a wee bit about how you did.
DH - the I in ITC is 'Initial Training Course' ..we've got a list of documents, handouts, starter packs, during the training and dates, also signed, this is essentially giving us the headline titles of the various classes or modules you were undertaking.
DH - there are handouts referred to here, the 'personal escort handbook' given to you,
DH - and do we see if you look at
module - IMD 8, 'Equality and Diversity' that was done in November 2024,
DH - modules on prisoner welfare care plans, and personal escort records, both in early December
DH - we will come to week 6 in time, .. wind back to the start of the course, ...any discussion of matters such as DEI,
DT - there was a distinct recollection that it was raised on the first day of the course.
DH - who brought up DEI
DT - CH, he asked 'what is DEI', .. I told him I didn't agree with DEI, it was coming from a good place but wasn't about diversity it was about conformity, if you didn't agree with it you would be punished, not promoted, it was about characteristics not competence,
DH - did the issue of trans come up in Week 2?
DT - I don't remember if it was Week 2 or Week 3 but there were some specific conversations about it.
DH - what was the first one you remember
DT - trainers told stories about notorious cases, about one trans prisoner who bit their own wrists, to make them bleed.
DT - he - CH - said 'she tried to cut off one of her testicles' , I reacted and said 'do you realise how ridiculous that sounds'
DH - what did CH say
DT - he said I agree with some of what you say, it's gone too far in some areas
CH said you had to do it, use their pronouns.
DH - anything else
DT - so i said to him, that's just bollocks, and an older man on the course, said 'literally bollocks' and everyone burst out laughing
DH - what was the tone
DT - it wasn't combative, it was people ....

BettyBooper · 29/01/2026 20:33

AnSolas · 29/01/2026 19:58

@Tunnocksmilkchocolatemallow · Today 19:31
Again, policy does not trump the law. That includes in recording information. They must record sex under their PSED and under the SC ruling this must be sex not self ID gender.

That is a GA problem.
It only becomes a DT problem if he is a open to blame if he records the data within a PSED reporting system.

If the M/F section is not classifed as "ask subject if they want M or F ticked" within the training then DT can say his understanding of the 2 options had to be biological is supported by the SC.

imo head of a pin analysis 😁
Its a what is his role and what is the form used for fuctionally as fair processing of data subjects data by using DTs collected data (eyes) has to be disproved /proved.

@BettyBooper · Today 18:32
If the only info recorded is preferred gender rather than sex, I can't see where (having tried) the SPS / receiving governor could know that the person coming to them is not, in fact, the sex that is recorded on the PER.
Policy says that PER must be filled in accurately.
Policy also says that trans prisoners must be placed according to biological sex initially for assessment.
But how will that happen if GeoAmey staff are recording F instead of M? Someone somewhere has to mention that they're trans.

Thats my point.
In the TIF case someone failed to correctly record sex or did not record her sex at all but recorded a (assumed) gender.

Post intake had her sex not been discovered and she had been placed in general population she could been placed in a shared cell if there was overcrowding

@SternJoyousBeev2 · Today 17:05
MM has not (yet) proved that the document in question only had a "gender" rather than sex option
I really hope DH asks the GEO Amey witnesses exactly what data is being captured by the M/F tick boxes and what the reason would be for collecting that data.

That is a CH question or whoever trained on the PER.

This is key along with when it was covered on the training.

》》 If it is not documented it never happened ...

MM jumped up and down on that point.

GA is claiming DT did all the training.

DEI came up and he said nothing.

None of the other trainers documented his attitude to DEI or a pronoun problem.

How was the training managed?

Did they cover Data Protection?
They were transporting people accused of anything from child rape and organised crime.
And these are peole from the community DT lived in.

Was DT taught and understand how to fill in the PER?
If so when?

Did the prison visit involve managing high risk events and were OMG events discussed?

If this or a near version happened somebody is telling a "it happened because we documented it" post WeFuckedUp version of events.

MyrtleLion [28/1/26 11:44 - 12:09]
DH - did you go to visit a prison
DT - we went for restraint training, ..
DH - who was your supervisor?
DT - Chris Hutton who was leading training
DH - so what is this document
DT - it's like a workbook to mark progress, what did you do in that week, a wee bit about how you did.
DH - the I in ITC is 'Initial Training Course' ..we've got a list of documents, handouts, starter packs, during the training and dates, also signed, this is essentially giving us the headline titles of the various classes or modules you were undertaking.
DH - there are handouts referred to here, the 'personal escort handbook' given to you,
DH - and do we see if you look at
module - IMD 8, 'Equality and Diversity' that was done in November 2024,
DH - modules on prisoner welfare care plans, and personal escort records, both in early December
DH - we will come to week 6 in time, .. wind back to the start of the course, ...any discussion of matters such as DEI,
DT - there was a distinct recollection that it was raised on the first day of the course.
DH - who brought up DEI
DT - CH, he asked 'what is DEI', .. I told him I didn't agree with DEI, it was coming from a good place but wasn't about diversity it was about conformity, if you didn't agree with it you would be punished, not promoted, it was about characteristics not competence,
DH - did the issue of trans come up in Week 2?
DT - I don't remember if it was Week 2 or Week 3 but there were some specific conversations about it.
DH - what was the first one you remember
DT - trainers told stories about notorious cases, about one trans prisoner who bit their own wrists, to make them bleed.
DT - he - CH - said 'she tried to cut off one of her testicles' , I reacted and said 'do you realise how ridiculous that sounds'
DH - what did CH say
DT - he said I agree with some of what you say, it's gone too far in some areas
CH said you had to do it, use their pronouns.
DH - anything else
DT - so i said to him, that's just bollocks, and an older man on the course, said 'literally bollocks' and everyone burst out laughing
DH - what was the tone
DT - it wasn't combative, it was people ....

Yes I was clumsily agreeing with you.

I have tried, and failed, to find anywhere that a transgender prisoner would highlighted if all PCOs followed the instructions of GA to reliably also fulfil the policy of SPS to place re biological sex.

AnSolas · 29/01/2026 21:48

BettyBooper · 29/01/2026 20:33

Yes I was clumsily agreeing with you.

I have tried, and failed, to find anywhere that a transgender prisoner would highlighted if all PCOs followed the instructions of GA to reliably also fulfil the policy of SPS to place re biological sex.

You point was clear

What if any control function did the PER serve

&
Sorry I forgot add the sub-thread links for anyone who wants to read the prior conversations

@BettyBooper · Today 18:32
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5384528-custody-officer-job-withdrawn-for-gc-beliefs-gribbon-sp-legal-team-is-his-solicitor?page=28&reply=150194133

And
@SternJoyousBeev2 · Today 17:05
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5384528-custody-officer-job-withdrawn-for-gc-beliefs-gribbon-sp-legal-team-is-his-solicitor?page=27&reply=150192402

Page 28 | Custody officer job withdrawn for GC beliefs - Gribbon (SP legal team) is his solicitor | Mumsnet

I wonder how many more of such actions will be launched. To adapt Jimmy Doyle’s phrase, “the spectacle of this nation’s [lanyard classes] enforcing mo...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5384528-custody-officer-job-withdrawn-for-gc-beliefs-gribbon-sp-legal-team-is-his-solicitor?page=28&reply=150194133

HannahinHampshire · 30/01/2026 00:29

Good article in the Dundee Courier (which did sterling work in Sandie Peggie coverage).

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5421949/david-toshack-pronouns-tribunal/

Another2Cats · 30/01/2026 10:40

The latest from TT this morning

SW - Stephan Weir, trainee with DT

Swearing in on camera - no sound/
J - Mr Weir (SW) you'll be directed to pages and asked questions by them and me. If you need a break please say. Have you seen SM on case?
SW - no
J - Mr Hay
DH - some issues with charger, will inform if prob.
DH - name, age, job, epmploer?
SW - SW, PCO and Geoamey
DH - how long a PCO?
SW - a month
DH - when did you start
SW - training last year, started Jan
DH - were you on same course as DT
SW - y
DH - did you know him before?
SW - no.

DH - we know DT was dismissed 7 Jan 25, have you had any contact?
SW - yes as friends
DH - how often have you met him?
SW - maybe once every 3 months DH - friends?
SW - yes
DH - have you talked about day he was dismisse?
SW - not really
DH - it came up?
SW - yes

DH - interested in your recollection, not things DT has said, understand?
SW - yes DH - on hte course. DIscussion in group setting, your cohort was about 10?
SW - yes
DH - a week or two in came together with another cohort of about 10?
SW - yes
DH - at least 1 trainer in

DH - room?
SW- yes
DH - CH present?
SW - yes
DH - when DT and CH were present there was a discussion on TP?
SW - yes
DH - how many occasions with DT and CH
SW - 3 or 4
DH -any memorable?
SW - yes
DH - how far into course, that one?
SW - in the middle
DH - 3 weeks in
SW - yes

borntobequiet · 30/01/2026 10:41

Nothing happening- am I missing something?

Oh MN wasn’t updating for me.

Another2Cats · 30/01/2026 10:43

From TT

DH - who was there, the small or larger group?
SW - larger
DH - how did TP come up that occasion. sound difficult
DH - why did CH talk about that prisoner?
SW - talking about circs around gender of prisoners
DH - why does this stick in memory
SW - he made a statement that was

SW bizarre
DH - what was bizarre
SW - CH he used the phrase her testicles
DH - and you think that's bizarre SW ??
DH - are you aware of view or belief that some people don't believe you can change sex
SW - yes
DH - do you ascribe to GC views
SW - 2 genders male and female

DH -so more GC than opposite side?
SW - yes
DH - CH's comment in that session, was there a reaction
SW - yes
DH - ??
SW - asked if he knew how silly it sounded
DH - response
SW - CH said it might sound it but was situation
DH - any other recruits chipin
SW - a few

Another2Cats · 30/01/2026 10:44

DH - remember who
SW - no
DH -did DT?
SW - yes, just agreed
DH - any recruits express diff view
SW - not that I recall
DH - what was the tone of the discussion
SW - amicable and humorous
DH - and CH's tone to your comment
SW - calm friendly humorous
DH - how long this discuss?

SW - no more than 10min
DH - did tone change at any point in that session
SW - no, no
DH - did CH object to the comments by you of DT?
SW - no
DH - session of 7th Jan last year now, SH took the session, recall?
SW - yes
DH - CH heavily involved in 6 weeks of training, SH too?

SW - no, that was the first session
DH - on what topic
SW - HR, rights (?)
DH - and the T issue came up, who brought up treatment of TP
SW - SH
DH - on what topic
SW - emphasis that it's the law, and policy, that we use PP
DH - anything said?
SW - yes
DH - who

Another2Cats · 30/01/2026 10:47

SW - Tosh and I
DH - is that something you said at the meeting?
SW - yes
DH - MISSED
DH - what did DT say
SW - he said it wasn't the law and wouldn't use PP because it's a lie.
DH - did SH respond?
SW - yes contradicted him
J - sorry
SW - and opposed what he said

DH - led to discussion between DT and SH on that point? how long
SW - yes a couple of minutes
DH - describe gist of discussion
SW - company policy, but not a UK law and was wrong to say that to the class DH - did DT ay was he was/wasn't prepared to do
SW - yes said wouldn't use

SW - PP or ref as opp sex
DH - on this exchange. Thinking about DT tone?
SW - firm and clear
DH - what was tone of voice SW - normal
DH - level of voice
SW - normal
DH - language?
SW - firm but respectful
DH - and SH, how was her tone
SW - clear didn't like it, got a bit aggitated

DH - what about her demeanour
SW - quick to speak, straight talk positions
DH - her tone
SW - not loud but bothered by the challenge
DH - did you get an impression of whether she agreed about DT on PP
SW - she strongly disagreed
DH - and SH's language
SW - respectful but in opposition

Another2Cats · 30/01/2026 10:49

DH - any particular words or phrases
SW - yes said it is the UK law several times in response to DT's ideas
DH - which ideas
SW - that he had to call prisoners by PP
DH - anyone else joining conv
SW - no
DH - was this the joint group?
SW - yes
DH - goes on a few mins, then what

SW - SH asked DT to leave room and wait outside door
DH - next?
SW - she went out and came back in
DH - how long SH was out of room?
SW - 10-15 mins
DH - exchange took place, SH and DT outside, you are inroom with group. Any class reaction?
SW - just faces of disbelief and shock

DH - was there discussion later
SW - yes, when it was over.
DH - when SH came back, was anything said by her about what happened?
SW - she didnt elaborate
DH - did any of the class say anything on her retunr
SW - I believe she confirmed he was sacked
DH - SH didn't say anything

AnSolas · 30/01/2026 10:51

AnSolas · 29/01/2026 10:15

The trope

MM - homosexuality was illegal and hidden in the 50s and 60s and now can be more open about it. Can you see the parallels there?

Nasty legal positioning
" GA " would know the difference because they would safeguard train on MH issues and the sub-class of MI issues

Note the word and meaning swap

DT - I'm not an expert but I believe it's a mental health issue and that's how it should be dealt with

MM - so you think the social contagion creates mental illness and then leads to mental illness, that leads to seeking drugs, surgeries, etc

DT - I don't know if its the social contagion or if they already have mental health issues, I've heard that

MyrtleLion · 29/1/26 10:17

MM - do you draw a distinction between FtM is a mental health issue and MtF is a sexual fetish
DT - a MtF is either a mental health condition or a sexual fetish.

🙄
Not an accidental misspeak

Another2Cats · 30/01/2026 10:51

DH - was anything being said by anyone else about DT being sacked?
SW - no
DH - in stages, we have what she says she said, did any of the class mention what just happened?
SW - no
DH - you said nobody expressed different views at that stage, did there come a point where they did?

SW - some underlined the rules and policy of GA
DH - any indiv trainees express disagreement with GC views
SW - don't remember anyone specifically
DH - had been with DT for 6 weeks, this was 2 days before the end. How did he conduct himself througout
SW - respectful and engaged

DH - anyone think otherwise
SW - no, there were no issues
DH - did you see DT??? that classroom
SW - no
DH - what happened
SW - I took his things from the classroom
DH - into the hall?
SW - yes, after SH came back
DH - she came back, how much time between her return and you taking things out

AnSolas · 30/01/2026 10:51

Thanks @Another2Cats

Another2Cats · 30/01/2026 10:54

SW - no longer than a minute (Sorry lots of sound crackles)
DH - can you remember what he was wearing?
SW - the GA uniform
DH - you returned his things, what did you do?
SW - back into classroom
DH - any discussion with DH?
SW -
DH - any conv about hwat happened
SW yes
DH - did you say anything about the classroom ??? How did DT seem
SW - Shocked and upset.

J - MM?
MM - you hadnt met DT before course?
SW - no
MM got to know on course, on overnights would you have coffee? drinks?
SW - yes
MM - discuss?
SW - interest in sports etc

MM did you talk abou sex and gender?
SW - during course yes
MM - Tiffany Scott (TS)?
SW - yes
MM - are you sure TS sessions were led by CH?
SW - ?
MM - sessions led to you two discussing sex/gender in own time?
SW - sorry this is very hard to hear
MM - you are religious

Another2Cats · 30/01/2026 10:56

SW - yes
MM - did you discuss what you thought of people who do beleve you can change sex
SW - no, didn't concern us
MM - CH discussion, did you talk about your views?
SW - I believe I did once or twice
MM - generally, the gist?
SW - TS and her testicles, how that rationally

SW - and logically sounds, it's bizarre
MM - did you say only M and F and can't change
SW - yes
MM to CH
SW - not sure
MM but during course
SW - yes
MM - said in front of CH? asking because situations with TP were discussed, did you say
SW - by that point in the course

MM your views were not secret?
SW - no not on the course
MM - 7th Jan 25, remind me what point TP discussion started, and why
SW - discussion about UK law you have to use TP PP's which was incorrect.
MM - page discussions pg 53, doc called safer custody.

Another2Cats · 30/01/2026 10:58

MM - page 456, do you remember this presentation by SH?
SW - not really
MM - others will say this sparked the conv between SH and DT. SH said women in custody leaflet had to be given to TW too, MtF, you can see it includes TW. Others say this was the point when the conv started

MM - I'm putting it to you this is when it started, do you remember it
SW - that is not what started it
MM how sure
SW - it was when SH said it was law
MM - I'm putting it to you you are wrong and she was right
SW - no comment
MM - SH will also say you have to record in PER

MM - that leaflet is given and say have to read. remember that?
SW - no
MM - might she have
SW - maybe, maybe not
MM - then she says she reminded to be mindful of pronouns, she her was the rule and described a violent incident as a result of PP not being used. DO you remember

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