Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"feminist transphobia is inextricably connected to feminist imperialism"

45 replies

IwantToRetire · 17/07/2025 18:19

Every now and again there are threads on FWR where (some of us) enjoy the thrill of reading a Judith Butler word salad and pulling out quotable quotes.

Well here is something different, but IMO just as much fun to read, if you have a free moment in your busy day.

In today’s TERF rhetoric, Lewis observes “two centuries of ‘Anglo-Saxon’ feminist participation in eugenicist colonial efforts to clean up messy gender (and prostitution) in colonies like British India, where there were substantial populations of non-cisgender indigenes”. For Lewis, feminist transphobia is inextricably connected to feminist imperialism.
https://isj.org.uk/reactionary-feminism-rev/

Contesting two centuries of reactionary feminism • International Socialism

A review of Enemy Feminism: TERFs, Policewomen, and Girlbosses Against Liberation by Sophie Lewis (Haymarket, 2025), £14.99 I finished reading Enemy Feminism on the day the British Supreme Court ruled that equal rights legislation applied exclusively t...

https://isj.org.uk/reactionary-feminism-rev/

OP posts:
SionnachRuadh · 18/07/2025 07:15

My doctor keeps telling me I need to get my blood pressure down. I'm not sure it was a good idea reading literal rape apologist Judy Cox bigging up card-carrying moron Sophie Lewis.

The SWP's intellectual level really has gone down since Alex Callinicos wrote his excellent book Against Postmodernism. But that was published in 1991, and today we see an elderly Callinicos fawning over Judith Butler because he believes that's what's popular with the kids. I would feel sorry for Alex, ending his career in this pathetic way, if he weren't such a cunt.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 18/07/2025 07:37

It's a load of jargon laden gobbledygook, if this is what academia is producing nowadays, it's not surprising all the uni's are going bust.

EdithStourton · 18/07/2025 07:45

When people in philosophy and the social sciences start to obscure what it is that they are saying with lots of jargon, usually what they are saying is one of three things:
Nothing;
Bollocks, or
A very simple idea dressed up with a lot of waffle and long words.

ETA, I think this one is bollocks.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 08:11

TomPinch · 17/07/2025 21:00

You're right RedToothBrush - once the intersectional dalek is deployed it's impossible to have a proper discussion. I reckon that's how the entire theory - regardless of what it's applied to - is meant to work.

The TERFs central claim isn't DARVO.

It's that they are talking bollocks and you can't change sex.

And we are right.

TomPinch · 18/07/2025 08:39

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 08:11

The TERFs central claim isn't DARVO.

It's that they are talking bollocks and you can't change sex.

And we are right.

I do agree with you. I think what makes a person male or female is their biology and certain clear and easily explainable consequences follow from that. It's when you have a theory that obsesses about the power relationships between whatever group your creativity can identify, all explained with slippery use of metaphor that you get into this situation. Like EdithStourton just said.

FamilySwimming · 18/07/2025 08:59

EdithStourton · 18/07/2025 07:45

When people in philosophy and the social sciences start to obscure what it is that they are saying with lots of jargon, usually what they are saying is one of three things:
Nothing;
Bollocks, or
A very simple idea dressed up with a lot of waffle and long words.

ETA, I think this one is bollocks.

Edited

Quite literal ladybollocks.

FamilySwimming · 18/07/2025 09:01

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 18/07/2025 07:37

It's a load of jargon laden gobbledygook, if this is what academia is producing nowadays, it's not surprising all the uni's are going bust.

It certainly raises questions about funding for academia and where some cuts could quite usefully be made without losing anything of value.

DeanElderberry · 18/07/2025 09:17

I'm picturing the process starting with two paper bags on the desk, each containing a load of paper slips with words for bad things written on them.

The writer sits down and pulls a slip out of each bag, then writes the sentence:

[bad word 1] feminism is inextricably linked to [bad word 2] feminism

and they're away on a hack.

The sad thing is its probably automated now. No more fun for verbose and intellectually lazy grifters.

SionnachRuadh · 18/07/2025 09:24

The sad thing is its probably automated now. No more fun for verbose and intellectually lazy grifters.

The 1990 comic novel Redemption by unemployed maharajah Tariq Ali (don't bother, it's not very good and won't make any sense if you don't know the long dead Trotskyites it's sending up) has a mildly amusing bit about Paul Foot, riffing on the idea that his Socialist Worker columns were written by a computer programme and none of the comrades noticed because they were so thrilled to have the great Paul Foot in the paper.

This is both weirdly prescient about AI and also desperately unfair to Foot, who had many faults but would never stoop to having his columns machine written.

puffyisgood · 18/07/2025 09:49

That settles it, then, men are women, glad we cleared that up 👍.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 09:50

When the word salads can give an adequate explanation of how the person who gave birth to every single human on this planet can only ever have been born female and they can only do this with the involvement of some one who was born male Ill start taking them seriously.

Until then, all they've got is meaningless big long words and huge intellectual egos trying to bully boy their ideas on the rest of the world.

They don't have substance. They just have various types of intimidation tactic.

Intellectual intimidation and silencing is still intimidation.

Meanacademic · 18/07/2025 11:53

interesting review

these two should be on the same side but cox is basically saying that Lewis hasn’t got her history right

which is true

also some factual errors in the review

but for now I’m taking it as a win that even fanatics such as Lewis (who has a “queer trans bride” and is thus a boring married heterosexual) are having to concede that TERFs belong to feminism.

JeremiahBullfrog · 18/07/2025 12:07

I am finding it unlikely that feminism was a major driving philosophy in British Indian colonial policy, although admittedly they did work hard to eradicate certain horrifically sexist practices the Indians had at the time.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/07/2025 12:08

That’s a good point @meanacademic

Ramblingnamechanger · 18/07/2025 13:18

Inexplicably is better for the title

Abhannmor · 19/07/2025 15:20

EdithStourton · 18/07/2025 07:45

When people in philosophy and the social sciences start to obscure what it is that they are saying with lots of jargon, usually what they are saying is one of three things:
Nothing;
Bollocks, or
A very simple idea dressed up with a lot of waffle and long words.

ETA, I think this one is bollocks.

Edited

Brilliant 👌

TomPinch · 19/07/2025 22:09

A question for people better read in Marxism and postmodernism than me.

The trans rights movement seems to have bits of both in it. For example, the notion that cisgender (their term) norms oppress trans people appears to borrow from Marx's ideas about economic relations between classes and how belief systems will reinforce those relations.

The idea that one's own experience is one's own truth and as good as anyone else's can't be challenged seems postmodern rather than Marxist.

How have the two been lumped together?

Have Marxists gone postmodern?

GallantKumquat · 20/07/2025 03:46

TomPinch · 19/07/2025 22:09

A question for people better read in Marxism and postmodernism than me.

The trans rights movement seems to have bits of both in it. For example, the notion that cisgender (their term) norms oppress trans people appears to borrow from Marx's ideas about economic relations between classes and how belief systems will reinforce those relations.

The idea that one's own experience is one's own truth and as good as anyone else's can't be challenged seems postmodern rather than Marxist.

How have the two been lumped together?

Have Marxists gone postmodern?

This is a topic that could fill a small library (or more!); but in short: yes, classical Marxism is a type of philosophical materialism. It sees human history as a vast system that operates based on underlying, predominately economic, factors; this can be seen by its vocabulary: means of production, modes of production, class, class struggle, value, surplus value, labour, exploitation, capital, bourgeoisie, proletariat, wages, alienation, worker, products of labour, etc. It differs especially from 19th century utilitarian/liberal materialism in that the supreme goal is to achieve a communist society where resources and power are distributed equitably among all people; in contrast to the latter that sees maximisation of personal well being and autonomy as primary goals.

Beginning in the 1970s Marxism was transformed from a materialist philosophy to a metaphysical one through the introduction of post-modernism, especially deconstruction. Deconstruction seeks to derive new knowledge by carefully analyzing semantic relationship within discourses within the context of broader society or a sub-cultures. When applied to Marxism it allows one to substitute in other concepts for class, worker, bourgeoisie, capital, wages, value, etc. Concepts substituted in might be sex, sexuality, women, patriarchy, gender, colonialism, race, disability, and obesity. The chief catalyst of this was the introduction of identity - instead of being a member of a single identifiable, material economic class, one could be a member of multiple classes: white, black, woman, man, indigenous, colonizer, etc. Critical theory was a post modern theory to ascribe moral evaluations to the new relationships created by the above substations into the classical Marxist vocabulary and relationships. This intern creates a moral imperative to correct unethical relationships; in that way Marxism was transformed into a meta-Marxism of which classical Marxism was only one specific applied possibility, i.e. became an idealistic, metaphysical, non-material philosophical system.

Of course, everything in the above is a gross over-simplification, and practically every point would find people to dispute it, but that gives you some idea about the change that took place.

TomPinch · 20/07/2025 06:27

GallantKumquat · 20/07/2025 03:46

This is a topic that could fill a small library (or more!); but in short: yes, classical Marxism is a type of philosophical materialism. It sees human history as a vast system that operates based on underlying, predominately economic, factors; this can be seen by its vocabulary: means of production, modes of production, class, class struggle, value, surplus value, labour, exploitation, capital, bourgeoisie, proletariat, wages, alienation, worker, products of labour, etc. It differs especially from 19th century utilitarian/liberal materialism in that the supreme goal is to achieve a communist society where resources and power are distributed equitably among all people; in contrast to the latter that sees maximisation of personal well being and autonomy as primary goals.

Beginning in the 1970s Marxism was transformed from a materialist philosophy to a metaphysical one through the introduction of post-modernism, especially deconstruction. Deconstruction seeks to derive new knowledge by carefully analyzing semantic relationship within discourses within the context of broader society or a sub-cultures. When applied to Marxism it allows one to substitute in other concepts for class, worker, bourgeoisie, capital, wages, value, etc. Concepts substituted in might be sex, sexuality, women, patriarchy, gender, colonialism, race, disability, and obesity. The chief catalyst of this was the introduction of identity - instead of being a member of a single identifiable, material economic class, one could be a member of multiple classes: white, black, woman, man, indigenous, colonizer, etc. Critical theory was a post modern theory to ascribe moral evaluations to the new relationships created by the above substations into the classical Marxist vocabulary and relationships. This intern creates a moral imperative to correct unethical relationships; in that way Marxism was transformed into a meta-Marxism of which classical Marxism was only one specific applied possibility, i.e. became an idealistic, metaphysical, non-material philosophical system.

Of course, everything in the above is a gross over-simplification, and practically every point would find people to dispute it, but that gives you some idea about the change that took place.

Thanks- I appreciate you taking the time.

Valeriekat · 20/07/2025 08:14

@RedToothBrush "Na this is a demonstration of power via the use of language to shut a lot of people out of the conversation and to over intellectualise."
Thanks I am going to use that!

New posts on this thread. Refresh page