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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Not sure how to concisely explain how female only events aren't similar to like, white only events

162 replies

UnlockedXCX · 01/07/2025 21:46

My friend keeps insisting that to say 'women only (born women, not trans)' is basically exactly like 'white people only, not black people' and I'm not sure how to explain that one is discriminatory and the other isn't. I'll say "it's so women can feel safe" and she'll be like "well what about white people feeling safe?" and it's confusing me that she can't understand, but I guess I'm not clearly explaining. Any wordsmiths on Mumsnet able to help me out?

I am American for reference. I assume I can be here (there's not really any place on the US web to talk about this sort of thing without being inundated by TRAs).

OP posts:
DragonRunor · 01/07/2025 22:23

I’d start by considering why a group would be women only - eg a breast feeding group (self-explanatory); a book club - maybe single sex because its aim is to discuss women’s views; an adventure club - maybe single sex because men are stronger than women and the aim is for the women to do stuff themselves, not rely on a man….. IMO, if there is no good reason for it to be single sex, then it shouldn't be, and all men should be allowed to join, but obv TW are men, so if it is single (female) sex, they wouldn't be included

TempestTost · 01/07/2025 22:26

I think you are having trouble OP because it really is a complex topic.

One major reason is because sex is a material reality which has material consequences in the world. For example, the potential for pregnancy, or differernt athletic profile. This means women have material common interests that they may want or need to pursue together, like a sporting event.

And while there has been some attempt in recent decades to downplay how much our sex impacts us, and technology has made that seem like a real thing, I think the reality is that it's one of the really biggest elements of who we are, it affects our whole experience of relating to each other, our physicality, our emotions. It also has a huge impact on how our life is likely to be shaped.

Race, on the other hand is almost completely socially constructed. Ethnicity has some material element, but we define race according to what are in many ways arbitrary lines. People can be "mixed race" which in some ways is almost a meaningless category, different societies delineate races differently, and they were often divided differently in the past as well.

As an example - Where I come from, for example, if someone is black, it means they have at least one parent of African descent. Some who would be considered black there would be "mixed-race" in the UK. My partner, who comes from another country, would call anyone who is not of European descent black, including Asians, middle eastern people, and various sorts of Native American groups. None of these are wrong or incorrect because there is no scientific or empirical line that can be drawn around the definition, it's social convention.

So there is really little that people in these arbitrarily defined group have inherently in common. Where they do, it's usually for social-historical reasons in a particular place, for example in North America there could be an interest in the civil rights movement among people who would have been affected by historical laws affecting people with African ancestors.

Thelnebriati · 01/07/2025 22:29

By PriOn1:
''...unlike those opposing racial segregation, who demanded an end to segregation, transactivists are not asking for an end to segregation.
Instead they are demanding that segregation should continue but that they should be given the right to choose which space they use.''

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5317250-reframe-your-disappointment?page=6&reply=143633545

Reframe your disappointment | Mumsnet

Inspired by a couple of other threads about the reaction to the Supreme Court judgment from trans allies, I thought it might be interesting to have a...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5317250-reframe-your-disappointment?page=6&reply=143633545

TempestTost · 01/07/2025 22:30

MyAmpleSheep · 01/07/2025 22:16

If it's any help, under the EA2010, the one protected characteristic not eligible for single characteristic associations is race. A whites only club is illegal. (For that matter, so is a blacks-only association.) A single sex association is lawful.

This is not just a legal issue; the law recognizes what we all recognize - that separating people by race has no place in society, while separating by sex is legal, appropriate, and a good idea at times.

Edited

This is not the case everywhere though, likely not where the OP lives. In some places in the US a black only group would go over a lot better than a women only group.

Alucard55 · 01/07/2025 22:33

Ask her why it's not enough for women to just say we do not want biological men in our private spaces.

Xyloplane · 01/07/2025 22:39

Fargo79 · 01/07/2025 22:03

Men are womens' oppressor group. White people are black people's oppressor group.

Your friend sounds spectacularly dim.

Her analogy would be closer to the truth if she said "women-only spaces are similar to black-only spaces". And many of us would perfectly well understand why black people may want or need safe spaces that do not contain white people.

This is exactly it. White people have not been historically oppressed as a result of their ethnicity. An oppressor cannot suddenly just decide that they are now the oppressed.

Maybe remind your friend that the only reason single-sex spaces exist in the first place is because of male violence against women, so maybe she should spend her time campaigning to end that rather than campaigning to make women even more uncomfortable in public spaces than they already are?

CSometimes · 01/07/2025 22:39

MyAmpleSheep · 01/07/2025 22:21

therefore it is reasonable to have spaces just for black and brown people.

No - no it's not. It's neither reasonable, nor lawful. EA2010, schedule 16 paragraph 1(4).

That is true, although it is lawful to restrict membership of an association to people of a particular nationality, ethnicity or ethnic background. It's only the colour element of race which is excluded from the exceptions.

illinivich · 01/07/2025 22:40

TRA usually want to have gender, not sex groups.

They dont equate single gender groups to race segregated groups, only single sex groups .

MyAmpleSheep · 01/07/2025 22:41

TempestTost · 01/07/2025 22:30

This is not the case everywhere though, likely not where the OP lives. In some places in the US a black only group would go over a lot better than a women only group.

Yes - I didn't pay enough attention to the OP's nationality.

But - at least one national legislature (ours) drew a bright line distinction between separating people by colour, and separating people by sex. It may not be her legislature, but this fact helps to illuminate why sex is not the same as colour.

Incidentally - in the UK's EA2010 race is defined as including "colour, nationality and ethnic origins". it is permitted in the UK to have single nationality associations, as well as single ethinc-origin associations. Single colour associations are forbidden.

Again, while this is not directly relevant to the US, that a distinction between colour and other characteristics is drawn here should make anyone who says they're the same pause for thought.

Firefly100 · 01/07/2025 22:43

Hmm, hypothetically an interesting question. My response would be on a logical level there is little difference it is true. However, the idea is that one should never discriminate unless it is a reasonable means to a legitimate goal. I can think of plenty of situations where limiting participation to women only could meet that benchmark but I can’t think of any where limiting participation to only white people would.

Merrymouse · 01/07/2025 23:02

Skin colour is literally skin deep.

On the other hand men and women have different internal organs and skeletal structure.

If your friend conflates the two, it suggests they are at best hard of thinking and at worst racist.

JustFeedMeCake · 01/07/2025 23:04

Your friend is a racist idiot. I couldn’t be friends with someone like that. Why are you? 🧐

MistyGreenAndBlue · 01/07/2025 23:33

Treeleaf11 · 01/07/2025 22:02

"well what about white people feeling safe?"

That's a bit of a racist comment from her.

It's extremely racist. Black people are not inherently more dangerous than white people.
But men ARE inherently more dangerous than women.

THATS the difference

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2025 23:37

The issue is that women can have babies. Men can't. This makes women vulnerable.

Black and white people can do exactly the same as each other (if they are the same sex).

Saying it's the same as racism, and comparing transwomen to black women is actually a form of racism because it's always framed in a way that others black women comparing them to men and it's never framed using white women with a comparison to men.

We are not the bigots. She needs a 'are we the baddies' moment.

Toseland · 01/07/2025 23:49

I wonder what she would think of white people dressing up as the worst stereotype of a black person then rewriting black history. Demanding black people change their language. Behaving in ways that would bring black people into disrepute or danger?

UnlockedXCX · 02/07/2025 00:27

Thank you for your replies.

OP posts:
SnowFrogJelly · 02/07/2025 00:59

Your friend is right

SnowFrogJelly · 02/07/2025 01:00

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2025 23:37

The issue is that women can have babies. Men can't. This makes women vulnerable.

Black and white people can do exactly the same as each other (if they are the same sex).

Saying it's the same as racism, and comparing transwomen to black women is actually a form of racism because it's always framed in a way that others black women comparing them to men and it's never framed using white women with a comparison to men.

We are not the bigots. She needs a 'are we the baddies' moment.

This makes no sense

NumberTheory · 02/07/2025 01:51

Your OP isn’t entirely clear - If she doesn’t agree with any segregation than she has at least got a somewhat consistent ideology, but I would tell her that women are vulnerable to male violence and oppression and if she isn’t interested in how to liberate and protect women from that she has a pretty brutal value set that you do not share.

But it sound more likely that your friend’s okay with segregation based on gender identity, just not based on sex? (I.e she’s fine with women’s group if the definition of woman is anyone who identifies as a woman).

So if I was inclined to argue with her I would imply say that I don’t share anything in common with trans women that I don’t share with any other non-conforming male and that if we’re going to compare this to the race situation (which is not something black people tend to be happy about) I can’t see any difference between transwomen claiming to be female and Rachel Doziel infiltrating the NAACP.

You could get into the minutia of just how much closer transwomen are to men than women in almost anything statistical, but I don’t think that’s likely to win an argument with a friend who isn’t already pondering those things.

NumberTheory · 02/07/2025 01:52

SnowFrogJelly · 02/07/2025 01:00

This makes no sense

It makes perfect sense. HTH

FeistyCat · 02/07/2025 01:55

These may help:

Not sure how to concisely explain how female only events aren't similar to like, white only events
Not sure how to concisely explain how female only events aren't similar to like, white only events
FeistyCat · 02/07/2025 02:10

Click on the photos to get the full, and clearer, images.

NotBadConsidering · 02/07/2025 02:37

Anyone who wants to have white only spaces and exclude black people would need to explain how black people are different to white people. They can’t do that without resorting to racist lies. Clearly there’s no difference.

Anyone who thinks this argument is akin to women’s only spaces can only logically argue this is they think there also no difference between men (including trans identifying men) and women. They can’t do this without resorting to sexist, misogynistic lies. Clearly there’s a difference and to pretend otherwise, and pretend it’s as valid an argument as race segregation is racist, sexist, misogynistic and completely batshit.

So ask your friend if they genuinely think there’s no difference between men and women, in the tone you would ask someone if they genuinely think the Earth is flat.

FeistyCat · 02/07/2025 02:44

DragonRunor · 01/07/2025 22:23

I’d start by considering why a group would be women only - eg a breast feeding group (self-explanatory); a book club - maybe single sex because its aim is to discuss women’s views; an adventure club - maybe single sex because men are stronger than women and the aim is for the women to do stuff themselves, not rely on a man….. IMO, if there is no good reason for it to be single sex, then it shouldn't be, and all men should be allowed to join, but obv TW are men, so if it is single (female) sex, they wouldn't be included

@DragonRunor IMO, if there is no good reason for it to be single sex, then it shouldn't be, and all men should be allowed to join

Why do we even need a reason, let alone a "good reason"? Why can't women gave something to ourselves...just because we want to? Why do we need to justify our spaces or our wishes? Why? Why can't we have something for ourselves, just because?

Heggettypeg · 02/07/2025 02:53

Tell her to imagine she's sharing a house with two or three people who are all bigger, louder and pushier than she is, especially when they get together. Two of them are nice enough, if a bit overwhelming; the third gets drunk and sometimes aggressive. Luckily, she has her own bedroom and a key for it, so she can get away for a bit of peace and quiet without having to leave the house, and has a safe place if Drunk Person starts to get nasty. She isn't "segregating" them, and they aren't "segregating" her; she's just taking refuge for a while, and why shouldn't she? And if the three of them fall out, it's not on her to solve it by letting one or more of them hang out in her bedroom whenever they feel like it. She's entitled to her own space.