Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
8
Helleofabore · 06/06/2025 10:53

ItsCoolForCats · 06/06/2025 09:53

The new headline is equally ridiculous. Why not just say "EHRC commissioner says trans people have been lied to about their rights".

ohh!!! Imagine THAT as a headline in the Guardian!

That would cause a melt down when it then had to be pointed out just who lied !

yetanotherusernameAgain · 06/06/2025 11:22

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 06/06/2025 08:58

Yeah, I’m just not giving the guardian my email address, so I won’t be reading any of their articles anymore unless someone shares an archive link <shrug>

Don't need to sign up - just use an incognito window on your browser.

StressedLP1 · 06/06/2025 11:41

That headline is infuriating.

And ironic bearing in mind it is another lie to trans people about their rights.

ConstanceMartensCat · 06/06/2025 12:11

OldCrone · 06/06/2025 10:29

I wondered what this 'debate' was, which appeared to have barristers Akua Reindorf KC and Naomi Cunningham on one side, and activist organisations on the other. Why were there no barristers arguing for the genderism side?

It turns out this debate wasn't a debate at all, it was actually a panel of four barristers discussing the judgment (the others were Ben Cooper KC and Sarah Vine KC), with questions from the audience.

For Women Scotland Ltd v The Scottish Ministers

I assume that Amnesty, Liberty and TransActual could have been at the event asking questions, but they chose not to, preferring instead to snipe from the sidelines when asked for their opinion by the Guardian. And the Guardian reported their comments as thought they were actually taking part.

I watched the whole thing at the time. The man chairing made it clear in his preamble that organisations from the ‘other side’ had been invited but been unwilling or unable to attend.

Peter Walker, the journalist who wrote that article, is now doubling down massively on Bluesky.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 06/06/2025 12:23

ConstanceMartensCat · 06/06/2025 12:11

I watched the whole thing at the time. The man chairing made it clear in his preamble that organisations from the ‘other side’ had been invited but been unwilling or unable to attend.

Peter Walker, the journalist who wrote that article, is now doubling down massively on Bluesky.

Of course he is and l bet the Bluesky RSOH are cheering him on

JustSpeculation · 06/06/2025 12:34

Helleofabore · 06/06/2025 07:51

I was aiming for understatement. Did I succeed?

I was riffing on your understatement. You nailed it!

RoyalCorgi · 06/06/2025 12:52

Good luck with those complaining. I've heard from others who have complained that the Guardian reader's editor is fully on board with the trans rights agenda and dismisses any criticism. The one time I wrote to her she didn't even bother to acknowledge the email, let alone reply.

TheOtherRaven · 06/06/2025 13:01

As usual all the wittering around trans (men, it's only EVER the men) 'rights' being rolled back - never any mention that those trans organisations and men rolled women's legal rights back without having the slightest problem with it, and now its been established that women have those legal rights and protections want them rolled back officially in law!!!

The bias is bloody horrific!

WOMEN HAVE RIGHTS TOO

And as usual they're absolutely nowhere to be seen in this article at all. It's like they don't exist.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 06/06/2025 13:02

I agree with jane fae.

Until about five minutes ago, everybody, and I mean everybody, believed that a women-only space was permitted but not required to exclude biological males with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (irrespective of GRC status), and also that such exclusion could be illegal discrimination (by disadvantaging them relative to non-trans people and relative to the opposite sex - post-Haldane, the comparators differed between GRC-holders and non-holders, but the effect was the same).

There was official guidance about when such trans-exclusion was justified. It had to be a proportionate means to a legitimate end. Stonewall said 'this is a high bar; it virtually never applies'. That's not a lie; it's an opinion.

The SC ruling has changed everything, not just by what it had to say about certificate sex, but with its observations about the operation of the single-sex exceptions under Section 158 and Schedules 3 and 16, and nobody saw it coming.

Anyone who disagrees, point me to anything on this board or elsewhere, in the three years post-Haldane, that argues, eg:

"David Lloyd gyms' changing rooms purport to be women-only, and that means they must exclude all transgender women without a GRC in order to benefit from the exception from sex-discrimination law provided by Schedule 3"

Nobody argued that, did they? We were all "mixed-sex changing rooms are discrimination against the more vulnerable sex" (also a valid argument).

SC changed everything, the clever, clever buggers. I am so in awe 😍 🥳

EweSurname · 06/06/2025 13:04

ConstanceMartensCat · 06/06/2025 12:11

I watched the whole thing at the time. The man chairing made it clear in his preamble that organisations from the ‘other side’ had been invited but been unwilling or unable to attend.

Peter Walker, the journalist who wrote that article, is now doubling down massively on Bluesky.

What sort of points is he making? Hard to imagine how he marries it up with the reality of the situation

LittleBitofBread · 06/06/2025 13:36

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 06/06/2025 09:52

Still a bit mealy mouthed!

It's more than that. It doesn't make sense. How can you be required to accept something that's only perceived? I'll have to assume that people who are legally literate are satisfied that this is no longer defamatory/actionable, but I still think it's outrageous.

JasmineAllen · 06/06/2025 14:09

RareGoalsVerge · 06/06/2025 09:32

The Guardian are now disingenuous spreaders of misinformation. Totally untrustworthy as a source of news. I used to be a loyal Guardian reader and I'm still just as left-wing as ever but I will not accept being lied to.

No rights have been lost. No one has ever had the right to declare a new reality that has no basis in facts. No one has ever had the right to force other people to believe something counter-factual. Everyone has the right to believe what they like about themselves, including believing that they have a soul that is the opposite sex to their body, and to make their own decisions about how to live in the context of that belief. The boundaries of that right stop at the point where they impinge on the rights of another human who doesn't share that belief system.

The Guardian is continuing to promote the illiberal and unethical concepts that the wishes of trans-identified people should overrule the rights of other people with ridiculous headlines referring to a "loss" of rights that never have actually existed and never should.

I agree @RareGoalsVerge and I mourn the Guardian of old that grew up with. It was my go to newspaper for decades. Even my Jeremy Corbyn voting dad gave up on it.

LittleBitofBread · 06/06/2025 14:15

JasmineAllen · 06/06/2025 14:09

I agree @RareGoalsVerge and I mourn the Guardian of old that grew up with. It was my go to newspaper for decades. Even my Jeremy Corbyn voting dad gave up on it.

God forgive me, I still subscribe to and read it. I really like Emma Beddington, Tim Dowling, a lot of stuff in the weekend magazine and the What's On section.
But today is the closest I've come to cancelling it. I only haven't because you get so used to the style and tone of a newspaper, and from that point of view I just don't enjoy reading any of the others as much.

ConstanceMartensCat · 06/06/2025 14:22

EweSurname · 06/06/2025 13:04

What sort of points is he making? Hard to imagine how he marries it up with the reality of the situation

I’m not on Bluesky, I just briefly saw screen grabs on Twitter earlier. But IIRC he’s miffed inter alia about the Victory T-shirt the other KC on the panel wore to the event going against the SC’s caution against triumphalism and he quotes one of Naomi Cunningham’s blunter remarks. Weirdly everything he’s citing was said right at the end of the event - it’s apparently taken him 3 weeks to get through the previous 90 minutes of it.

akkakk · 06/06/2025 14:29

Also now in the Telegraph:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/06/06/trans-people-lied-to-rights-female-only-spaces-bathrooms/
archive: http://archive.today/6vVWm

a better, more balanced report

TheOtherRaven · 06/06/2025 15:19

Much better article, thank you. Particularly well worded with regard to the paragraph about transgender 'entitlements' and women's 'rights'. The two words with very differnet meaning and much more accurate.

The whole schtick about about 'pitting women's rights and trans rights against each other' really needs putting to bed, it's absolute nonsense as anyone can see if it's considered for a moment and another aspect of fantasy land, but it's always left to stand unchallenged. Obviously in actual reality, the right of a man to watch a woman undress is not compatible with a woman's right to say no. The two things cannot exist in the same place. This cannot be disappeared by just denying it a lot.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 06/06/2025 15:30

This is from an hour ago -

https://twitter.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1930974158080389536

Some of the replies on Bluesky are deranged, when will these so called journalists wake up to what they are stirring up?

nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FGsw8mCjXcAAeeam.jpg

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 06/06/2025 15:38

Reindorf, speaking next, agreed: “Unfortunately, young people and trans people have been lied to over many years about what their rights are. It’s like Naomi said – I just can’t say it in a more diplomatic way than that. They have been lied to, and there has to be a period of correction, because other people have rights.”

Glad to see someone finally telling it like it is, and not surprised that that someone is Akua Reindorf.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 06/06/2025 15:40

Theeyeballsinthesky · 06/06/2025 08:19

Headline is disingenuous nonsense though

“accept reduced rights” theyre not being reduced because they were never rights in the first place

and unfortunately many ppl just scan headlines rather than read articles

what it should have said was “trans people need to accept they’ve been lied too”

Yeah, "accept that the world does not revolve around them" would be more accurate.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 06/06/2025 15:42

OneGreyScroller · 06/06/2025 08:31

The judgement says that trans people can be excluded in some circumstances from toilets of their biological sex if their presence might cause distress.

I. E. A masculinised woman looks so much like a man, or a feminised man looks so much like a woman, they can be excluded from both sets of toilets reserved for biological sex.

They did clarify that a trans person cannot be left in the situation where there are no facilities left to use

This is a bit of a weak spot in the judgment though, isn't it?

Where is a passing trans man supposed to pee if there is no unisex toilet available?

akkakk · 06/06/2025 16:37

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 06/06/2025 15:42

This is a bit of a weak spot in the judgment though, isn't it?

Where is a passing trans man supposed to pee if there is no unisex toilet available?

not really - because it is referring to organisational decisions... not those made by members of the public in the loos...

so a big company (eg NHS) feels that they might have some members who are 'trans' but have had surgery as e.g. woman -> male so may cause concern by using their birth sex loo - it is saying that it is okay in those instances to say that they can't use the male loos (they are female) and to say they can't use the female loos (they would concern the females who haven't had surgery) - but still need a loo, so just provide a unisex loo as well...

so they have to provide a solution, not just ban people from both - but the implication is that you start by restricting access that causes issues (wrong sex in loo, then those pretending to be the other sex) - as long as you always have another option...

so you can't have a scenario of nowhere to pee
if there is no unisex loo then the transman pees in the ladies as she is a female.

RareGoalsVerge · 06/06/2025 16:43

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 06/06/2025 15:42

This is a bit of a weak spot in the judgment though, isn't it?

Where is a passing trans man supposed to pee if there is no unisex toilet available?

I think the point is that the implications of the judgement are that all public spaces and organisations must be obliged to provide some unisex facilities (properly fully-enclosed single-occupier facilities, not just rebranding non-single-occupier facilities) alongside their male and female facilities because it would be discriminatory and wrong to leave a passing trans person with nowhere to pee.

Fundamental human rights - everyone needs somewhere safe, private and dignified where they can go to pee (or other necessary functions) when needed.
Not a human right - deciding that it's OK to force a single-sex facility to become mixed-sex for the benefit of people who want to be percieved as the opposite sex to the one they actually are.

ItsCoolForCats · 06/06/2025 16:47

They have changed the headline again and now added a correction. What embarrassing journalism from the Guardian.

However, the damage has already been done, and many people will have read the previous version (it was the top trending article on the Guardian site earlier)

PlasticAcrobat · 06/06/2025 16:47

I see that the guardian have made a second change to their headline, to correct the rather clunky and semi-meaningless initial change.
Good to have evidence that the complaints are making an impact.

LittleBitofBread · 06/06/2025 16:56

What a shambles.
I think it's still not great. 'calls for' somehow sounds to me like she was petitioning for something, rather than just discussing the ruling.
A pp's suggestion of 'Trans people need to accept they’ve been lied to' seems to me the best headline yet.