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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'The Protocol' series on children's treatment for gender by the New York Times

39 replies

Helleofabore · 06/06/2025 06:58

This series has been released today.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdMrbgYfVl-uRbb-KAAkSNzi_gHzQAX2d&si=WP74bzzXQQRAPKQn

The Protocol is a six-part series that tells the story of a new kind of medical treatment for a small group of young people and how it got pulled into a political fight that could end it in the U.S.

This is what if says on the trailer blurb

Introducing ‘The Protocol’

“Since 2021, nearly half the states in the U.S. have passed bans on medical treatments for transgender minors. The Trump administration is now targeting the care, and in the coming weeks, the Supreme Court is expected to weigh in. “The Protocol” is the story of youth gender medicine — where it came from, who it was meant to help, and what may come next in the legal and political fights over its future.”

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 09/06/2025 15:34

Sorry @KnottyAuty

Life got in the way and I wanted to answer you with some links that may help you to understand perhaps why people are pushing back on this podcast series. I am still very uncomfortable at the soft balling that they have done with these episodes that seem to support the Dutch Protocol.

I shall post some other information that readers may or may not have seen before. Maybe it will help explain.

The Dutch Model is falling apart

By Stella O'Malley / 2 January 2023

First, Stella O’Malley writes about an article in Nederlands that is throwing a great deal of light on the Dutch Protocol. It also seems that there will be a review of the patients that the Dutch team had not previously included in their papers.

This article in the Nederlands points out the dangers on only using a nation’s own sources with no international input or even wide review.

genspect.org/the-dutch-model-is-falling-apart/

plus the below

A documentary on the Dutch Protocol

There are currently almost 3,000 young people on the waiting list for gender care in the Netherlands. They are vulnerable adolescents who are frequently subjected to discrimination. Many of them suffer severe mental distress. Doctors at the gender clinic in Amsterdam are pioneers in care for transgender young people. The treatment developed here years ago is now used worldwide. Now, criticism is growing. International experts are questioning the scientific evidence put forward by the clinicians in Amsterdam. Zembla investigates the Dutch transgender protocol.

What this covers is that no gender clinic has been able to replicate the results of the Dutch paper. One patient of the group died due to the surgery complications of gender surgery and even de Vries questioned why no one seemed interested in that patient while accepting the study. Dr Riittakerttu Kaltiala (Professor of Pschyiatry, Tampere and who set up gender clinics) and Mikael Landen (Professor of Pscyhiatry, Gotenberg) and Dr Angela Samfjord (Head of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the University of Gotenberg ) all are interviewed about the quality of the study behind the protocol and its flaws that became apparent later. Ie. The 55 patients is so small and de Vries acknowledges that they are not really similar to todays cohort of adolescent transitioners. That only 32 filled in the survey with positive results. The others were not chased up and one died.

Gerard van Breukelen, a professor of Methodology at Maastricht university goes on record to say that the methodology of that initial study was weak. There was no control group so the conclusions should not have been considered as strong as the gender clinicians claimed. Other academics declined to be interviewed due to fear for their employment as it is such a contentious issue. When talking to de Vries, she mentions that many more studies have been done by other countries now. And the doco makers mention that all those studies de Vries refer to have stated that the evidence is low quality. A Swedish team led by Landen was asked to do a full review by the Swedish government and he confirms that the evidence was just not there. Hence the Swedish government withdrew treatment.

The mention the Cass review and discussion ‘locking in’ of identities contradicts the ‘time to think’ narrative. They interview three transitioners. One detransitionered before surgery and one is happy with transition but not with the process the team followed. The one who detransitioned was put on hormones despite not even socially transitioning as he felt wearing a dress was ‘a man wearing a dress’. But was put on hormones but didn’t go through surgery after all. It also wraps up with Lucy who was stuck on the waiting list and who believes that if she was given PBs, she would not have ended up transitioning. She has obviously detransitioned now after double mastectomy and testosterone, then ovaries and uterus removal.

This is the peer reviewed reanalysis of the UK study. McPherson & Freedman both worked on the initial analysis of the patient clinical data.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2281986

Psychological Outcomes of 12–15-Year-Olds with Gender Dysphoria Receiving Pubertal Suppression in the UK: Assessing Reliable and Clinically Significant Change

Susan McPherson & David E. P. Freedman

Published online: 29 Nov 2023

Abstract

The evidence base for psychological benefits of GnRHA for adolescents with gender dysphoria (GD) was deemed “low quality” by the UK National Institute of Health and Care Excellence. Limitations identified include inattention to clinical importance of findings. This secondary analysis of UK clinical study data uses Reliable and Clinically Significant Change approaches to address this gap. The original uncontrolled study collected data within a specialist GD service. Participants were 44 12–15-year-olds with GD. Puberty was suppressed using “triptorelin”; participants were followed-up for 36 months. Secondary analysis used data from parent-report Child Behavior Checklists and Youth Self-Report forms. Reliable change results: 15–34% of participants reliably deteriorated depending on the subscale, time point and parent versus child report. Clinically significant change results: 27–58% were in the borderline (subclinical) or clinical range at baseline (depending on subscale and parent or child report). Rates of clinically significant change ranged from 0 to 35%, decreasing over time toward zero on both self-report and parent-report. The approach offers an established complementary method to analyze individual level change and to examine who might benefit or otherwise from treatment in a field where research designs have been challenged by lack of control groups and low sample sizes.

The Dutch Model is falling apart

Finally. the Dutch are speaking up. The country that recklessly decided that it was a good idea to offer experimental treatment to healthy young teens

https://genspect.org/the-dutch-model-is-falling-apart/

OP posts:
KnottyAuty · 09/06/2025 16:17

Thanks @Helleofabore - I’d have taken ages trying to find this myself

Moremountains · 09/06/2025 16:49

The death of one patient following a riskier surgery because of puberty blockers should have put a stop to the treatment.
Another criticism about the Dutch protocol: it should have been the ideal time to set up a randomised control trial where the effect of therapy alone was compared to the effect of therapy + puberty blockers.

Helleofabore · 09/06/2025 17:20

KnottyAuty · 09/06/2025 16:17

Thanks @Helleofabore - I’d have taken ages trying to find this myself

I have quite the bank of links stashed. Most of them are in the Break it down for me thread. From about half way through the thread.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?latest=0

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BabaYagasHouse · 09/06/2025 23:19

Adding this (haven't listened yet), but I follow this podcast (Informed Dissent):

Jamie Reed (from episode 4 "The Whistleblower") responds to the Protocol podcast:

open.spotify.com/episode/09gPc5xnGqZoHFHPid6ocH?si=2fzaqkwoRw-OAm5KT9kKlw

Helleofabore · 10/06/2025 07:24

Bayswater have posted this thread which echoes the reservations I have.

start

The NYTimes podcast "The Protocol" paints a picture of a golden era in paediatric gender medicine before the arrival of new and more complex adolescent-onset patients. An audit of UK GIDS referrals in 2000 suggests a rather different tale. 1/11

The 2000 audit of 124 paediatric referrals to the GIDS clinic is described in @hannahsbee "Time to Think": Only 2.5% had "no associated problems", 70% had more than five "associated features", including profound difficulties/vulnerabilities outlined in the next tweet. 2/11

57% had difficulties with parents/carers, 52% difficulties with peer relationships, close to 1/4 exhibited "inappropriately sexualised behaviour" (a red flag for CSA), a similar number had a history of self-harm, 25% had spent time in care (compared to 0.67% of children in general), 42% had lost one or more parents through separation or bereavement, 38% had families with mental health problems, a similar proportion had families with physical health problems. 3/11

In short, straightforward cases where the only issue was in relation to "gender" were very rare indeed. Similar data is lacking for the Dutch clinic, but there is no reason to believe they would have been seeing fundamentally different patients. 4/11

The account given by the Dutch gender clinicians (which escapes even modest journalistic scrutiny in The Protocol) is that careful screening weeded out those complex kids to identify the ones who simply had the misfortune to be born in the wrong body. There is no account of how or why a child might reach this conclusion, or the disproportionate impact on kids who would otherwise turn out to be gay. 5/11

And assuming a vaguely similar patient cohort to the early GIDS patients, the rates of onward referral for PBs at the Dutch clinic suggest that many are likely to have had other difficulties. A study of Dutch patients from 1997-2018 found that for the children who presented to the clinic before the age of 10, rates of progression to puberty blockers among those "potentially eligible" were 53% of females, 36% of males. 6/11

Of the supposedly "straightforward" cases, another haunting question lingers: how can we know from individual accounts that their chosen path was the best option? Lack of regret does not mean that a treatment is safe, effective or medically necessary. This is why we have robust clinical trials. 7/11

But when @JamieWhistle points out that "customer satisfaction" alone cannot justify clinical interventions, this is greeted with surprise by podcast host Austin Mitchell: What else could possibly matter? "Evidence of clinical benefit" Reed replies. And yet Reed is framed as someone with "extreme" views, quite unlike the moderates who are allowed to claim this is all ok as long as we are careful. 8/11

Podcast host Azeen Ghorayshi tells us that Dr Cass's position is that "there are absolutely kids who benefit from these treatments" (Episode 5, 32:05), and yet earlier in the same episode her co-host admits that "what the evidence actually showed was ... we don't know" (12.02). This contradiction isn't even acknowledged let alone explored. 9/11

Rather than objective scrutiny, we get subjective storytelling, as if contrasting personal opinion will lead us to the truth. And crucially, the truth is not always found in the middle ground: good journalism should be open to that possibility. 10/11

So De Vries is given the final word, blaming "politics" for doubts about her treatment. She is left unchallenged about an array of inconvenient details such as her own recent admission of "the often enduring presence of negative affect throughout and beyond transition". 11/11

x.com/bayswatersg/status/1932164156813361175?s=46

OP posts:
Shedmistress · 10/06/2025 17:29

I'm just finishing episode 3. I need a couple of days off already.

WarriorN · 10/06/2025 17:35

Thanks, started listening

Shedmistress · 12/06/2025 12:57

No mention of the gayness of the kids.
No mention of the suicides after the blockers.
No mention of the questionnaire switcheroo.

I stopped there as that was in the first episode.

Johanna Olsen Kennedy did say did she not, that the results of her 9 year lond study show 'they were fine before blockers and fine at the end'?

Erm, if they were fine, what were they treating?

The wrong clothes it would appear, this occurs time and again from the 'Trans kids' or ex trans kids. I'm sure people will be going through all their questions on this series on a podcast somewhere, if anyone finds one please can you post it?

KnottyAuty · 12/06/2025 14:10

BabaYagasHouse · 09/06/2025 23:19

Adding this (haven't listened yet), but I follow this podcast (Informed Dissent):

Jamie Reed (from episode 4 "The Whistleblower") responds to the Protocol podcast:

open.spotify.com/episode/09gPc5xnGqZoHFHPid6ocH?si=2fzaqkwoRw-OAm5KT9kKlw

Thanks for posting this - a real eye opening on what was missed out by the NYT. Also highlighting that the "industry" or care pathway is chopped up into disparate silos. Which means only people like Jamie Reed have oversight of the whole lot. So lots of medical people can avoid responsibility as there is no single professional who oversees it all. Really odd.

Jamie was a social worker type figure and it was her realisation that the kids who had been blocked at 15 - who were supposed to be the poster kids now doing brilliantly - were not doing well. Out of school or work, depressed, not leaving their house etc. And the use of untested drugs which had caused liver damage on young people. Weird it wasn't covered well in the NYT podcast

Helleofabore · 12/06/2025 14:34

KnottyAuty · 12/06/2025 14:10

Thanks for posting this - a real eye opening on what was missed out by the NYT. Also highlighting that the "industry" or care pathway is chopped up into disparate silos. Which means only people like Jamie Reed have oversight of the whole lot. So lots of medical people can avoid responsibility as there is no single professional who oversees it all. Really odd.

Jamie was a social worker type figure and it was her realisation that the kids who had been blocked at 15 - who were supposed to be the poster kids now doing brilliantly - were not doing well. Out of school or work, depressed, not leaving their house etc. And the use of untested drugs which had caused liver damage on young people. Weird it wasn't covered well in the NYT podcast

Jamie Reed is speaking out and also wearing her medical researcher qualifications hat on as well as her other roles.

OP posts:
inkognitha · 07/07/2025 11:26

I have listened to the first 2 episodes, it is not extremely partisan, but it is extremely complacent...

One example in the 2nd episode: during the discussion, the transitioned guy says that if ppl disagree, he'd break their arm ... and that he follows up by saying he has actually broken people's arms in real life.

Only reaction? A polite laugh, my jaw dropped.

How many women do you know who have broken someone's arm?
And this man was put on a transition path very young, supposed to be as "woman" as one can be.

KnottyAuty · 07/07/2025 11:50

inkognitha · 07/07/2025 11:26

I have listened to the first 2 episodes, it is not extremely partisan, but it is extremely complacent...

One example in the 2nd episode: during the discussion, the transitioned guy says that if ppl disagree, he'd break their arm ... and that he follows up by saying he has actually broken people's arms in real life.

Only reaction? A polite laugh, my jaw dropped.

How many women do you know who have broken someone's arm?
And this man was put on a transition path very young, supposed to be as "woman" as one can be.

Thanks for that really useful observation. It is a good talking point for those who I have suggested listen to this as a "entry" into finding out more

inkognitha · 07/07/2025 13:04

KnottyAuty · 07/07/2025 11:50

Thanks for that really useful observation. It is a good talking point for those who I have suggested listen to this as a "entry" into finding out more

Indeed, it is all very soft and gentle on the surface, but some hard truths manage to seep through if you listen:

Episode 1, the first woman to receive puberty blockers who became a health professional. She makes a remark about being smaller than the average man, the anger in her voice is very palpable. All these drugs and treatments, affirmed and validated all the way, result: she still suffers from dysphoria to some extent, she is still not at peace with her body.

Episode 2, the same interviewee as my 1st remark, he tells how he was made to sign a waiver as a child before starting a course of drugs that would make him infertile. He admits he had no idea what it would mean, yet he signs without thinking further. Less than 10 seconds later, following on another question, he explains how he is still feeling hurt and resentful that he had to take on so much so young... and the connection is not made.

If I had had to take such a decision as a child while the adults cover their arses and let it happen, even if the outcome was positive, I would have to be either loyal to the point of denial or extremely, extremely angry.

And these are the success stories... Summary: one is dysmorphic and angry, the other is breaking arms and unhappy.

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