Gender ideology in maternity research

[MrsBlob]

I participated in a study today (online) about postnatal mental health, having had a baby 2 months ago. One of the questions gave me cause to email the researchers; see the attached image.

On a serious note, a researcher will need to go through the responses to that question. The question is based on a mass delusion, and therefore any data from it is worthless.

This is unacceptable when maternal MH is a major cause of suffering and death for women who have become mothers.

Thanks for your response. It's interesting that change in favour of trans people (men and women ironically) usually seems to result in obliteration of the language and needs of others. Why is that do you think? What has made this group so powerful that so many of those involved in maternity care prioritise their demands over the needs and rights of pregnant women?
Is it just that women matter so little that even midwives / doctors have internalised this contempt for women and happily throw the reality of women's bodies and language under the bus? Or are their other reasons why 50% of the population are no longer considered important enough by some to deserve their own language and facts?

Was the question at the start or the end of the survey, OP? Only because if it was at the start, I wonder if selecting male meant that you are not able to progress to the next section and its a way of weeding out responses from anyone not eligible to respond?

But it will be really interesting to see what reply you get from the researchers (i think I've seen the ads for the particular survey you have completed!). I've noticed a lot of changes recently when I've had to complete various equality / diversity monitoring data where I am now asked "what was your sex at birth", "is that the same as your gender identity", "if not what is your gender identity". Which at least feels like it would allow for accurate data to be collected and would cater for some of the circumstances described upthread.

"Could I ask you to bear in mind that sometimes issues look very different when you have personal experience of them, and the trans debate is one?"

I'm not going to do that. I would like to reply to several points in your comment, however, as I recently gave birth, using my uterus (something that is materially real), I don't have the time to do that, so I will have to reluctantly limit the scope of my response.

I appreciate that this must be an extremely difficult time for you; I would be devastated were I in your position, and my daughter had been caught up in this. I'm fortunate that I'm on the 'post' side of this rather than the 'pre'. That means I can take certain actions like restricting social media/smartphone usage, encourage critical thinking in my child, monitoring educational input - I might even consider home-schooling, depending on how things are, but I know this comes with other disadvantages.

But I still find this idea that being a woman is something that can be identified in or out of pretty offensive TBH, and I'm not going to pretend I don't for the sake of being polite; that's what got us into this mess.

I puked myself into hospital on probably 10+ occasions. After the birth, I was 6kg LIGHTER than my booking weight. I didn't bother to eat for days on end, because it would always come back up, regardless of what medicines I took. This was a consequence of being a pregnant woman, and having specific organs and certain hormones and physiological processes at work. I could not identify out of that living hell - would have been great if I could have. You are trapped, with only 3 routes you can take:

1. Endure the living hell.
2. Abort a very much wanted pregnancy.
3. KYS

I could have identified out of this in the same way someone can identify out of a wheelchair, or someone can identify into another ethnicity, or I can identify to be a different age.

I could have had a 'female' name, or a 'male' name. I could have decided on whatever pronouns I wanted. Worn trousers, a conservative dress, a mans shirt or had short hair, purple hair, ticked whatever option on a form. It would have no bearing on the material, actual reality of the situation. If I decided I wanted to dress and present as a man typically does to the extent I ticked 'passes as a man' as well, it wouldn't stop me puking.

If a man decided he wants to identify as a woman, he is never going to have to be in that situation; he does not have the biological hardware. Doesn't matter whether he has a 'female name', decides he wants to pressure other people into using 'she/her' when talking about him in the third person or wears a full face of slap. He won't somehow end up sobbing and puking simultaneously because he decided to identify as a woman.

Being in most demographics has both pros and cons - some have a lot more cons than others. Society's response to these cons often helps to even this out. Children get a lot of protections because of their vulnerability. e.g, medical consent given by an adult; can't get a tattoo; can't drink ect.
Women get (well, got) separate sports categories, because in most sports they will perform worse than men because of their physiology.

If someone tries to appear to be in another demographic than the one they actually are, they can gain some of the pros, which may be accommodations specifically for some groups, of being in that demographic, while not actually having the cons when it doesn't suit them. Sometimes there may be no impact of this - e.g, if non-disabled people decide to walk up the wheelchair ramp, it won't typically affect wheelchair-users at all (unless a very crowded area). But if people decide to park in the disabled spots, it will. That's why this issue is important. It doesn't have a uniform effect; it depends on the demographic, but people in one demographic identifying into other demographics and accessing those 'pros' illegitimately often reduces the impact of those 'pros' for the people who actually need them.

If someone says, I'm suicidal if everyone doesn't pretend I fit into 'X' demographic, I'm sorry that they're in their situation mentally. I really mean that.

But everyone pretending they are actually that demographic, and for serious purposes that affect other people is not a reasonable solution to this. Its an adult version of a child saying "I'm going to keep holding my breath until I get what I want." No. We're not doing that. Go ahead, hold your breath.

Maternity outcome statistics are a serious purpose; they might affect what interventions are offered to people who actually need them. Its not acceptable any portion of these resources be frittered away to accommodate a delusion.

When someone 'passes as a man' that means that person is having to make a very deliberate effort to get everyone else to believe they are that demographic. This has actual consequences for other people. That person should get MH support, ofc. The tide is turning now, thank God, most regular people are actually aware of what is going on. In the future, this will probably be seen as some kind of culturally bound delusional disorder.

Before my pregnancy, I would probably try to be a bit more polite in how I phrased this, while keeping the meaning the same; now I don't have the patience for this. Sometimes issues look very different when you have personal experience of them:

Woman is based on biological reality; mother is a title you earn. Any man who emphatically says he is a woman and expects you to act as if this is reality is either dangerous or delusional. Traditionally, women have been expected to make personal sacrifices for the comfort and convenience of men. This was not acceptable then; it is not acceptable now. I will not pretend it is acceptable for the sake of peace.

A working day has now passed down under, and I have had no response.

'so our language around this and the way we approach this in research needs to shift'.

No.

You can change your language if you wish to. You are at perfect liberty to choose what words you want to say.

'our language' is not going to shift. 'Our' includes me and other people. I will not change what words come out of my mouth based on someone else's delusional disorder. I will continue to observe the reality I see before me in my speech.

Maternal mental health is so important and so overlooked. It’s encouraging that research is being carried out but most unhelpful to compromise it with gender nonsense.
Suicide is a common cause of maternal death - I was suicidal when I had PND - and sometimes I can’t help but contrast this factual truth with the false claims of the trans lobby. The sooner this idiocy stops, the better.

Thanks for your comment.
The question was at the start - it asked if your gender was 'male' 'female' or 'non-binary'.
The research is by people from the school of psychology.

I don't think it was to weed out those ineligible - to complete the survey, I first had to have a video call. In the video call, they needed to see that I actually had a baby with me (although they didn't need to see the baby's face).

It is from an Australian uni - Australia is a lot further down this rabbit hole, and is having a lot more issues filling in said rabbit hole.

It included a 'prefer not to say' and an 'other'. There is major issue I have with this question. Unlike all the other categories it asks about, e.g income, education ect, this question requires me to engage with an ideology.

I ticked 'female', but I don't believe female to be my gender. There was no option that adequately reflects what would be my response. Gender is a concept that no one has yet been able to give me a clear and consistent explanation of what it actually is. I don't believe I have a gender. Not in the weird sense of someone who says they are 'agender' - that still requires me to believe 'gender' is a real thing.

My sex is female. Of course it is, I have given birth. Everyone who is filling out the survey is female. Even if they believe they are male, they are still actually female.

This question is like saying:

Please select your sect of Christianity:

1. Catholic
2. Protestant
3. Eastern Orthodox
4. I am part of another sect
5. Prefer not to say.

There's no option to say 'I am atheist'.

Although for the record I'm a protestant. A man walking on water is more believable than this s*.

You're sounding VERY patronising.

I'd be very interested in hearing some answers to these questions.

I can't wait for the response to your email, OP.

Autism comorbid with narcissism certainly seems to afflict a percentage of those making the demands, especially the more strident men identifying as women. It would make an interesting research piece. I won't hold my breath waiting for it. That particular percentage of the TRA community don't want research or exploration. They just want what they want and they want it now!

That is unlikely to happen.

The commentator has gone along with this for her child.

To maintain her sanity, and I don't mean this as an exaggeration, she must maintain her position that 'gender' is a real, hard concept policy should be based off, and not that it is a belief system.

If she really, really thinks about some of these questions, she will have to question her worldview.

She needs to get as many people as possible to agree with her, to help her maintain this worldview.

If she doesn't maintain this worldview, she will have to accept that she has helped to facilitate serious harm to her daughter. That would drive a lot of people over the edge.

Yeah, I felt pretty damn patronised.

'bear in mind that sometimes issues look very different when you have personal experience of them'.

I disagreed with the whole trans, gender yada yada thing before I had a baby.

After having one, my disgust of it is somewhat more visceral.

You don't get to pretend to be my demographic by wearing certain clothes putting on certain makeup, then act like I'm the one being crazy and unreasonable when you get pushback. You'll never experience the really s bits of being in that demographic.

Me neither, but I'm not sure if I will get one.

Bloody mint op

'As a midwife, researcher..'

Oh lord protect us, I didn't see this bit.
I am a midwife as well, look at my post history if you like.
Please, resign from your job as a researcher.
Women in the care of the NHS deserve better than this.
I deserve better than this.
Let someone else who understands biology do it instead.
Bloody hell.

I agree that 'transpeople' are not going away. However they are not changing sex, because it's impossible for mammals to do so.

So why does our language need to change again? Why are we being asked to pretend that something is happening that isn't?

Just wow OP. So many powerful posts.
It enrages me to see pregnant women dismissed and patronised like this - by the very people who should have their backs yet are now in thrall to this powerful, narcissistic group, upending society for their own niche demands.

I'd hoped after some pretty grim experiences of maternity care many years ago that this younger generation of mothers would receive safer and more thoughtful care. Instead too many women are pushed through inadequate maternity units at the rate of knots while those in power (NHS England, NHS Trusts, academics and researchers etc) tie themselves in knots as they pretzel the ludicrous and impossible gender beliefs into NHS policy - diverting precious resources and time from those desperately in need of high quality maternity services - pregnant women and babies.

I hope that you're enjoying your baby. All credit to you for finding the time to challenge the fuckwits churning out this rubbish. Thank you.

😂 I very much look forward to their response!

I don't think you should bow out. It is indeed complicated and some balance needs to be struck - if sensible people like you don't engage in the conversation I fear many trans people will be disadvantaged by those who prefer screaming instead of finding solutions. So well done for joining in.

From my point of view I really object to the removal of female words from maternity policy in particular. I am not keen but I object less when there are "added" descriptions of chest feeding alongside breast feeding. But I don't think that the word mother should ever be changed or substituted. The GRA is clear that this word doesn't change on the birth certificate even if gender identity is not feminine. It is one of our oldest words and should be respected - making a new human is about the most female thing we women can do.

That said, at some point your child may decide to have a baby and it would be really good to make sure there is proper data about how many transmen are birthing and whether there might be a higher risk of post natal depression if dysphoria is in the mix. So I think the researchers should ask about gender identity but be clear that this is what they are asking about - unlike this survey which conflates sex and gender - possibly also asking about sex at birth to check for any entries which will ruin their data with incongruous answers?

The posters above are annoyed because we have had mixed up language and data slop for the last 10-15 years. I don't think it is aimed at you or your DC. Society has missed out on the chance to get proper data on and for trans people which is a great disservice - if things aren't properly measured then how will they get proper healthcare? Why not also include useful questions about feeding choices for those who have had mastectomies (elective or medically indicated) and any effect on mental health etc?

I don't believe that the posts above have any objection to trans people but instead to the mess made by our institutions by not sticking to facts which will benefit us all. You are possibly in a unique position to make suggestions about useful questions the researchers might include this or next time?!

@KnottyAuty @marthasmum
The combination of the two posts offers a balance of the discussion.

Science is a process to articulate what we don’t yet understand. Indeed there may be more than two sexes. It may be that as a species we have either not evolved to comprehend our biology beyond the form of procreation.

Until then we have a society that holds as its core value the scientific model, and this is the position social contact upholds.

@MrsBlob has been supported to challenge the poor science the research represents if only to ensure the poor quality maternity provision endemic globally is to be kept front and centre of the political and economic agenda. Rather than alarmingly by a minority and the impact the hijacking of language is having on an already failing system of gynaecology, obstetric and early childhood provision.

Thank you so much knottyaury and those others who’ve tried to make balanced comments. You have said exactly what I was trying to say. Perhaps it was lazy of me to post and not pursue it, but I’ve been working a lot (at the job I should apparently resign from). I also wasn’t expecting such vehement opposition, I’ll know better for next time and stick to discussing this outside Mumsnet. And finally, didn’t want to make this about my child. There’s lots I could say back to those who’ve attacked my parenting but don’t want to sideline the debate.

Thank you too for this balanced post. I was trying to say that this issue isn’t going away, however much it upsets us. So, researchers need to find a way to work with it. I do genuinely see both sides of the debate and thought it might be of use, but clearly it was read as patronising which was not what I was intending. I agree that some (not all) sections of the trans community are overly dominating. But to me, that doesn’t mean I can dig my heels in and just ignore the fact that people want and need to express themselves differently to me.
i won’t comment further but wanted to thank those who have responded constructively.

It may be that as a species we have either not evolved to comprehend our biology beyond the form of procreation

Not 100% sure what you are saying here, but ‘sex’ refers to sexual reproduction.

Whether or not it is useful to categorise people in other ways, when you refer to sex you do fundamentally refer to procreation, whether you are talking about a holly bush or a hamster or a human.

Agree this issue isn't going away - although if we could remove the hold that transactivists have on the NHS and education, perhaps fewer vulnerable young people will get caught up in the belief that a sex change is the cure for their feelings about their uncomfortable developing bodies.

The point that hasn't been addressed is why this immensely powerful lobby has been able to cause such harm to women in our generally inadequate maternity services. The OP expressed her feelings very eloquently about the negative impact the mangling of language, scientific facts and reality can have on pregnant women and mothers - women being over 50% of the population yet apparently relegated to being uterus havers, chest feeding parents etc.

As a "midwife and researcher" why is your position seemingly that women must suck it up and accept erasure from maternity services because a tiny group insist in their language being prioritised? " But to me, that doesn’t mean I can dig my heels in and just ignore the fact that people want and need to express themselves differently to me"
Why are you not committed to safeguarding women from this incoherent approach and clearly centring women's needs while ensuring that the tiny % of women thinking they're men but get pregnant have adjacent services?
What is it about this group that renders people incapable of prioritising the needs & mental health of women over the demands to change maternity services to suit this group?

If we could work out why and how this group has such a hold over those shaping maternity policy in the NHS, we might be able to stop them causing such harm to the mental health and wellbeing of women as described so powerfully by the OP.