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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Barbican Centre plans to remove 18 women-only toilets as part of its Renewal project

116 replies

Imnobody4 · 27/05/2025 11:41

Saw this last night - info is a bit difficult to extract. Consultation end 2nd June.
Theresa Steele has written a thread. Sorry if you're not on X.

'The Barbican Centre plans to remove 18 women-only toilets as part of its Renewal project, replacing them with mixed-sex “universal” cubicles. This is not inclusion, it is erasure. There is still time to object (1/10)'

https://x.com/XXFemaleOnly/status/1927075027901399495?t=RMLBCTAHdWyeKkZlHoDayg&s=19

https://x.com/XXFemaleOnly/status/1927297439746179240?t=RMLBCTAHdWyeKkZlHoDayg&s=19

This is what
I finally find on Barbican site.
www.barbican.org.uk/exhibition-guides/barbican-renewal-may-2025-public-consultation
Inclusive design is non-negotiable: participants highlighted barriers in toilets, seating, lighting, signage and booking systems.
Suggestion: Non-gendered, family and accessible toilets were top priorities. Neurodiversity was thoughtfully raised with design suggestions for low-stimulation zones, choice-based environments and clear sensory cues.

https://x.com/XXFemaleOnly/status/1927075027901399495?s=19&t=RMLBCTAHdWyeKkZlHoDayg

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Keeptoiletssafe · 29/05/2025 19:00

Luckily lots of single sex toilets still do have gaps under the bottom and top of doors for health and safety. They are still allowed.
In English secondary schools you do have to justify why you want them, as the standard, for privacy, is for a tiny 5mm gap. The Department of Education could not justify why in safety terms but did concede that schools also need to regard 1974 Health and Safety legislation so maybe that’s what we should be looking at.

DrPrunesqualer · 29/05/2025 21:14

Keeptoiletssafe · 29/05/2025 17:56

Some full height cubicles have the doors return to the closed position. Surely they need mechanical ventilation? No wonder they stink if there are no door gaps.

Re alarms. This was in my files from the fire industry association:

‘Where it is deemed necessary by way of a risk assessment, specification or legislation, to install VAD's within the sanitary accommodation of a premises, then the light output should be sufficient to cover the whole area.
Where there are floor to ceiling height cubicles, in order to conform to clause 17.2b) of BS 5839-1:2017, VADs should be installed within each cubicle. To not install VADs in these situations would be subject to an agreed and justified variation to the Standard.’

If they fully self close and the mech vent outside isn’t great then yes they may smell. ( although fittings must be vented )
Re fire
In a building such as this, it wouldn’t be deemed necessary to install VADs in every single enclosed cubicle, just in the corridor outside a bank of cubicles. If a unit is isolated it may be deemed necessary.
I have never put them in every cubicle because the working reality when designs are refined for approval is that they are not necessary. No door ever goes right to the ground blocking out all light and no enclosure is so soundproof an alarm can’t be heard.

ChocolateGanache · 29/05/2025 21:19

Why don’t they remove the mens toilets???

DrPrunesqualer · 29/05/2025 21:21

Keeptoiletssafe · 29/05/2025 18:30

So a couple of years after it specifically became illegal to have sex in a public toilet (clause 67 now 71) we, as a nation, became much more interested in dignity (whatever that means) and you get that BS. I don’t have access to the standards but that date didn’t surprise me.

that’s interesting !
I didn’t know that it was illegal as you can have sex in a public space as long as you are not doing it within view of others.

I mean the police didn’t care when half the village descended on the country lane I’m on for dogging sessions during Covid….so I’m surprised it became illegal in toilets a while ago ! It’s a good thing though, anyone can walk in so

BatshitIsTheOnlyExplanation · 29/05/2025 21:23

Lots of people have commented on men peeing on the seat, which is a fair point. Maybe there could be a design of toilet where you have to put the lid down to make it flush (and maybe to be able to get out of the cubicle), then after flushing, the lid and seat both return automatically to an open position. Then women put the seat down to use it. Men do whatever. And everyone flushes with the lid down (hygenic).

Keeptoiletssafe · 29/05/2025 21:31

DrPrunesqualer · 29/05/2025 21:14

If they fully self close and the mech vent outside isn’t great then yes they may smell. ( although fittings must be vented )
Re fire
In a building such as this, it wouldn’t be deemed necessary to install VADs in every single enclosed cubicle, just in the corridor outside a bank of cubicles. If a unit is isolated it may be deemed necessary.
I have never put them in every cubicle because the working reality when designs are refined for approval is that they are not necessary. No door ever goes right to the ground blocking out all light and no enclosure is so soundproof an alarm can’t be heard.

Edited

So deaf people aren’t considered. When I have been in fire drills the visual alarm was always in the single sex area outside the cubicles but you could see it flashing from every cubicle because there was a gap from door to ceiling.

TempestTost · 29/05/2025 22:56

Keeptoiletssafe · 29/05/2025 00:20

Anywhere that is private and sound resistant is handy for sex and drugs, like the universal cubicles. There was traces of cocaine found in over 90% of the Parliament loos, according to Sunday Times, though nothing was ever done about it.

That doesn't answer the question and it isn't relevant.

No, having drugs and sex in the loos is not equally common in all settings.

You seem to be struggling with the differernce between broad statistical statements and actual individual settings.

SqueakyDinosaur · 29/05/2025 23:07

maltravers · 27/05/2025 16:39

Perhaps you’re referring to Edward Lord, possibly on the relevant barbican team for the CoL and he certainly doesn’t seem a big fan of women having single sex spaces.

Edward Lord certainly was on the Barbican Centre Board until March 2023, but he appears to have left at that point - no later appearances or apologies recorded.

https://democracy.cityoflondon.gov.uk/mgAttendance.aspx?UID=292&DR=12%2f11%2f2022-07%2f05%2f2023

Attendance record - Charles Edward Lord, OBE JP - Modern Council

https://democracy.cityoflondon.gov.uk/mgAttendance.aspx?DR=12%2F11%2F2022-07%2F05%2F2023&UID=292

Keeptoiletssafe · 29/05/2025 23:19

What’s the question again? That people won’t take drugs at the Barbican? Why not?

Drugs and sex is common in public loos. The thing I struggle with is getting all the data because no one has got a central database.
It depressing going through the data I do collate. More private the cubicle = worst things happen inside. Particularly if it’s mixed sex and private.

Funny that people don’t want to get caught isn’t it?

edit: this is for the post before last! The quote disappeared.

DrPrunesqualer · 30/05/2025 01:42

BatshitIsTheOnlyExplanation · 29/05/2025 21:23

Lots of people have commented on men peeing on the seat, which is a fair point. Maybe there could be a design of toilet where you have to put the lid down to make it flush (and maybe to be able to get out of the cubicle), then after flushing, the lid and seat both return automatically to an open position. Then women put the seat down to use it. Men do whatever. And everyone flushes with the lid down (hygenic).

There are companies that do something similar
Sano2 is one. The entire space detects humans and when they leave the entire cubicle is cleaned and dried in approx 30seconds. This means the floor and sides of the toilet and handles are also sanitised. These types aren’t suitable in the Barbican though as
that 30 seconds is needed by the women queuing and there’s a lot more tech needed ( and this is a listed building )

colourmystic · 30/05/2025 06:40

These 'progressive' developments just live in perpetual denial of the fact that men are dangerous to women, don't they?

Slothtoes · 30/05/2025 08:38

I agree with you colourmystic.

So offensive that the Barbican’s own descriptions of their single sex (we are meant to assume) toilet provision is actually called ‘gendered’

So by labelling as such they are basically saying there are no single sex toilets in the building. Because ‘gendered’ toilets still means absolutely anyone can use it. Anyone eg male can decide their gender at the time they are close to a ladies’ loo if they just want to get in there and see what they can see and hear and they get off on women pissing. A known fetish. So they are forcing women to use dirty and less safe mixed sex cubicles as the relatively safer and more private option by reducing safety, privacy, dignity and security elsewhere, which is terrible.

Also it means that any complaints to the Barbican about men doing this kind of dangerous and escalatory behaviour in what women customers think are women's toilets, will never be acted on. By calling the ‘single sex’ toilets ‘gendered’ the barbican are trying to evade all responsibility for keeping toilet single sex and therefore evade b their own role in reducing sexual offences against women and their children using the toilets at their venue.

I’d also like to know how pushchairs (baby buggies) are supposed to be accommodated in these floor to ceiling cubicle designs?
They aren’t big enough spaces inside to get a pushchair in safely. No adult wants to hold their baby while they (the adult) are using the loo. But they would have to if the child is too young to be left alone outside a cubicle.

Also nobody wants to leave theit pushchair (which these days can cost hundreds to thousands) out in the communal area thoroughfares unobserved and unsecured.

Plus you can’t practically also bring and hold bring the pushchair’s contents of bags and supplies and coats for a day out with kids inside into the enclosed individual cubicle area. So we are supposed to just suck up an increased risk of theft, as well.

The Barbican is basically excluding single parents or any adult with a child who wants to visit the venue on their own. Or they are forcing ablebodied families with children to use the disabled toilets, simply because they need more private floor space to manage their needs. That is obviously highly ableist in removing provision from disabled people who are already under provided for with public toilets.

eg what if someone has two kids and needs to use the toilet with a baby and a toddler, and the toddler needs the toilet- so the adult is trying to hold the baby and help the toddler at the same time. Impossible really unless you have more than two arms. And while worrying about the security of the pushchair and its contents outside? That parent just won’t come back to that supposed ‘inclusive’ venue because it’s just too difficult for them to use. Massive two parent family privilege here or an anti child policy at work.

These problems are much improved and easier to manage with the normal single sex communal area, old school gaps-under-the-door type female-only toilet area. Because women can be confident there won’t be any men coming in.

This means you can bring your pushchair into the female toilets if you need to, you can leave your pushchair with baby in it while you leave the door to the stall open while helping the young child with the toilet and keeping an eye on the baby left strapped in the pushchair at the same time.

Slothtoes · 30/05/2025 08:54

PPs who have complained and got unsatisfactory responses about rigged consultation questions or dangerous sexist toilet facilities, please keep going and take it further!

Take your complaint and the reply to EHRC complaints as the regulator of the Equality Act because in this area since the Supreme court clarification it’s likely to be breaking equality law https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/dealing-discrimination-employment/making-complaint

Also the local government and social care ombudsman. Copy it in at the same time to them. The LGO can force local government bodies to adhere to the law. The Barbican is owned by the Corporation of the City of London; so it comes under LGO. LGO will intervene when the law is not being followed by a body that they have responsibility for.
https://www.lgo.org.uk/make-a-complaint/what-we-can-and-cannot-look-at

Their powers are time limited to 12 months from the thing you complain of, so please look into doing it if you have a complaint that’s been unaddressed or something is happening to single sex provision that could be against the law.

https://www.lgo.org.uk/

https://www.lgo.org.uk/make-a-complaint/what-we-can-and-cannot-look-at

Keeptoiletssafe · 30/05/2025 14:56

Ah the headlines today have reminded me of this article. What could possible happen in mixed sex, private toilets in a posh arty location? We need so many more of them rather than the traditional single sex loos with the door gaps.
Nice to know they were clean though.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-bbc-always-knew-that-russell-brand-was-a-lout/

The BBC always knew that Russell Brand was a lout

Women who worked with Russell Brand at the BBC have revealed that they were too scared to make official complaints about his behaviour.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-bbc-always-knew-that-russell-brand-was-a-lout/

Szygy · 30/05/2025 15:11

colourmystic · 30/05/2025 06:40

These 'progressive' developments just live in perpetual denial of the fact that men are dangerous to women, don't they?

Exactly this 👆

Ever-more elaborate edifices must be constructed; endless layers of policy and working groups and strategies and reams and reams and reams of paper and targets and objectives and ‘best practice’ and ‘outcomes’ and someone to paint rainbows on the wall and on and on and on. Plus of course the jobs for the (mostly) boys in the ever-burgeoning EDI sector.

When all it needs is the acknowledgement of simple reality: Men. And women. A basic, immutable division we should all acknowledge, respect and safeguard. So bloody simple, and yet apparently so very difficult.

The13thFairy · 30/05/2025 15:27

There's something racist to me about 'oh, women and men can use the same toilets.' In developing countries, providing safe, clean and separate facilities for girls and women is seen to be of the utmost importance, as everybody knows that those foreign men will predate every chance they get. Our British chaps, though, wouldn't say boo to a goose! Wouldn't dream of giving offence! Separate toilets are just not necessary for the UK.

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