Can we lay this to rest, once and for all?

[HelenaWaiting]

I'm disabled. I have MS and a congenital heart condition. I'm wheelchair dependent. Only if you are disabled or a carer do you understand how difficult it is to find a disabled toilet (there is always just one), how disappointing it is to find that toilet occupied, and how infuriating to discover that the occupant was some twat trying on a dress. So please, please stop saying "trans people can use disabled toilets". I've been fielding that particular curve ball for years but now we have Kemi Fucking Badenoch saying it. (No, she's not great. No she's not on our side. She's an entitled, vacuous, talent-free zone. She just happens to be a gender critical entitled, vacuous, talent-free zone). I can't wait for the loo as long as you can. I don't get as much warning as you. I can't hold onto it as efficiently as you. And I have no desire to piss myself in a shopping centre because some hulking great bloke in an ill-fitting dress is touching up his make-up. Disabled people campaigned for years for accessible toilets. There still aren't enough of them. Please don't hand them over to a group of people who have chosen to have a problem.

Not all disabled people believe that (I don't)

I think there needs to be an overall shift in making MORE places accessible to disabled people not having a minority of additional places accessible.

In my work place ALL toilets are accessible so someone who is disabled (or older or has a baby/young child ) can use the nearest, most convenient facility.

Disabled toilets came about because people felt uncomfortable seeing & using accessible facilities & equipment so they were kept separate to avoid offending 'normal' able bodied people .

In some cases a separate self contained toilet is preferable for privacy and dignity - there are some things you don't want to be dealing with in a cubicle in communal toilets

I read an article from a disability association that claimed 50pc of trans people had a disability so would be using them anyway? Seems weirdly high?

- have you actually read the posts on this thread? which are supportive

Yes I have. I was responding to the post that I quoted.

Google ‘Girl assault disabled toilet.’ These are just the ones that are reported. Disabled toilets are mixed sexed private cubicles.

All mixed sex/unisex/gender-neutral toilet cubicle and rooms designs are private. We are in danger of sleep walking into loads more opportunities for VAWG and boys. Can you imagine where some of these extra unisex toilets will be retrofitted?

Some building regs for the universal (unisex) design in Document T (2024):
A washbasin, mirror and hand-drying facilities within the cubicle
A full-height door and full-height floor-to-ceiling partitions
Be fitted with light action privacy bolts operable with a closed fist
Self-closer on door, if a fire door
Be capable of being opened from the outside if a person has collapsed against it while inside the toilet room or cubicle.
If the door is inward opening, have an emergency release mechanism so that the door is capable of being opened outward, from the outside, in case of emergency, such as when a person has collapsed while inside the toilet room or cubicle.
Adequately resist the passage of sound in toilet rooms.

————————

It’s interesting to know the government are aware how often people collapse in a cubicle. But how would you know someone has collapsed against the full height door? The design is lockable but arguably not secure as the tricks to open the door outwards will get known as its standardised.

In a unisex toilet you won’t know if anyone is outside your door. If you collapse no one will see you and no one will hear you well. However, a man will be able to let himself in at any point. If he does let himself in, or you get forced in, no one will know there are multiple people in the cubicle.

I for one have brought this up several times and have never advocated that TIM’s should use disabled toilets, quite the opposite in fact. I think your anger is somewhat misdirected, ‘GC’ women as you call us are not the problem.

Is there any reason why there can't be an accessible toilet in the ladies and one in the gents? Still sex segregated but there would be two when before there was only one.

That's an unusual version of the history of disabled toilets - what about the disabled campaigner and architect Selwyn Goldsmith, who designed the first accessible toilets in the UK because he believed that it was the structures and facilities that were holding disabled people back from wider participation in society

I never heard the 'avoiding offending able-bodied people' narrative, what is the source? Did that happen somewhere other than the UK?

I’ve never encountered a ‘GC person’ that does. Men should use the men’s toilets no matter how they identify and women use the women’s toilets.

Umm…I thought accessible toilets were just another name for disabled toilets?

I don’t think they’re free for anyone to use?
Confused now.

‘Are you aware of how often disabled people hear that there concerns aren't relevant, aimed at the wrong people,’

It’s the same for women so yes, we’re very used to it. Many of us on here have disabled children, me included, and I have posted many, many times about how often disabled people get overlooked and treated appallingly. I also want to keep ALL men out of women’s single sex spaces, these two things are not mutually exclusive.

I have to be honest with you, I don’t really understand why you have posted specifically here? Who are you aiming your post at?

And it’s not up to women to do it either.

MerseysippiQueen
Is there any reason why there can't be an accessible toilet in the ladies and one in the gents? Still sex segregated but there would be two when before there was only one.

That wouldn't work if the disabled person had a carer of the opposite sex and required their help, eg husband and wife, mother and adult son.

How often does this happen?

How often are disabled people having to wait on a public toilet specifically because it's in use for trying on a dress purposes??

corlan · Today 15:36

There's an article in The Guardian trying to make out there's an alliance between disabled people and men who want to use women's toilets. I gave up reading it because it was the usual dishonest bollocks.

I read that yesterday and was angered by the utterly specious nonsense it consisted of. I gave up and went back to it later and was astounded.

It's not as if there aren't numerous unisex toilets around, is it?

I agree.. I didn't use that phrasing by accident....

I think this rather depends on whether we think trandgenderism is a medical problem.

I suspect Kemi Badenoch, insofar as she thinks it's a legitimate thing, sees it as a treatment for serious dysphoria.

In which case you could argue the disabled loos were appropriate.

You're right, OP. Men need to use the men's loos, whatever they happen to be wearing.

How often is acceptable in your view?

OP has a point. Disabled loos are for disabled people, not men with colourful hobbies.

I don’t think you can, not unless someone has toileting problems post surgery which mean they need the extra space or need a toilet really quickly (or if they happen to have some other disability anyway).

Not all medical conditions require a disabled or accessible loo do they?

There are such a small number of trans people so it surely won’t be a normal occurrence. The census estimates there are approx 300k trans people in the uk which is less than 4000 per county. Is it really that bad for them to use disabled toilets when a neutral space isn’t available? Either thought no one changes sex, do you think it’s right for a trans person to use the facilities of their birth sex when they’ve transitioned due to severe discomfort with their sex?

I think baby changing facilities in disabled toilets is probably a bigger issue. I think the toilets need to be reserved for those with a disability who need them.

So how often are disabled people left waiting to use a public toilet because someone is using it to try on a dress?

Slow news day so let's make up a non-existent issue so we can keep talking about and demonising trans people?

Trust me, you really only have to wet yourself in public once to be put off leaving your house for some considerable time. I am not demonising trans people; as far as I'm aware, the suggestion that they should use the disabled toilet has come from GC people or neutrals - on Twitter, occasionally on mumsnet, by Maya Forstater and most recently by Kemi Badenoch. For those who were supportive and "got it" thank you. I have no time for the "what is the point of this post" people - nobody put you in charge.

Why can't men buy dresses and take them home to try on - are they finding dressing as a women in a disabled loo a turn on?
Or the control of taking spaces for disabled people excites them?
I don't care what men want to wear but it seems like they want women's spaces and now people with disabilities spaces.