We need to examine why so many women (including some prominent feminists) pushed the trans movement

[AliasGrace47]

I've seen quite a few posts on here placing the responsibility for gender ideology catching on on a combo of misogynistic & influential autogynephiles, and gay & straight men who backed them up.

I definitely think the core of the TRA movement is misogynistic men. But we also need to try & work out why several feminists promoted this stuff. After all, Butler's Gender Trouble is the Bible of this.

It's notable that supporting gender ideology and supporting paedophilia seem to correlate. Gayle Rubin is a notable influence, as is the now Patrick Califia. Both wrote in the 80s that child-adult 'sexual contact' could be OK.

I agree. We don't think with a hive mind, so women will have very different reasons for enabling trans-identifying males. The penny is now dropping, but the denial is still there for many.

I love the "Not My Nigels" script. They always have a 'lovely trans friend', an 'old school transexual' who had 'full surgery many years ago' and you would Never Tell if you were in a lady's toilet with them and they just want to live a 'quiet life'.

There must be a place where they learn these mantras.

I agree 100%. I'd also add in the ones who get career advancement out of it - in academia, obviously, but also in admin fields linked to HR and EDI. It's a gateway to high status, influence and a good salary for some fairly mediocre women (and men, but mainly women).

Yes, younger women ( mainly middle class and university educated) have been socialised to delay having children or not have them at all - because they think/realise that having children will impact upon their other life choices and possibilities. More so for women than for men.

I think you can’t underestimate internalised misogyny. We get messages from society that women are lesser than men from an early age, and some women try to dissociate themselves from being considered womanly by out-patriarching the men.

I know when I was younger, but already having experienced the myriad ways men can be awful, I wanted to embrace the idea that some men could be different because they were a woman trapped in the body of a man and I was willing to accept this as a truth. Those poor transwomen were treated badly by menly men and deserved our sympathy and friendship.

Of course, as time went on and the TRA movement ramped up, the falsehoods and entrenched misogyny became blindingly clear.

I can't figure this out either. Eva Wiseman in the Observer always comes to mind. Clearly educated, can string a sentence together, loves to make a point about trans people and 'transphobes' even when her column isn't really anything to do with it.
And my friend who posted on SM after the SC ruling along the lines of 'I've only ever been harassed by straight men, not transwomen'. Again, educated and intelligent, definitely calls herself a feminist.

I had a conversation with my 22 yo son recently about this. Young men in his peer group find the trans agenda nonsensical, the young women are still all for it. He also sees them generally buying into "whatever thery are told is good" and that they have much more of a pack mentality. He figures they need the pack more then men do because they are physically more vulnerable.
I tend to agree with him, probably explains fast fashion to some extent, while woman may be excessively targeted there may be an underlying reason why we are.

Your son is smart.
Women always need to keep each other in line because putting your head above the parapet is dangerous and if one woman sticks her head out, all women cop the blame and retaliation.

I suspect a ‘class’ element to this. Women are so desperate to belong. Showing that you believe TWAW indicates that you’ve read certain types of books, been to university etc. That you listen to irreverent podcasts like ‘the guilty feminist’ and sex positive hip hop a la Meghan Thee Stallion (WAP) et al. For those who were from working class families but have ‘made good’ it’s so important not to risk saying something that might betray ‘working class’ sentiment by ‘not getting’ how a man can be a woman.

As an immigrant, I often experience this. As long as I agree with whatever the prevailing sentiment is, I’m ‘local’. But as soon as I offer an alternative view, it’s because I’m ‘foreign’. It’s probably a bit the same for women who have come from working class families, or rural backgrounds, or any other background that they might not want to be associated with anymore. TWAW is a signal that they are loyal to the ‘academy’, the world of the mind.

I agree there are many different factors but I do think the promotion of gender ideology in schools and the deliberate targeting of young female activists is significant. The Denton’s playbook (https://www.trust.org/resource/only-adults-good-practices-in-legal-gender-recognition-for-youth/) lays this strategy out in black and white on page 18:

“GOOD PRACTICES FOR NGO ADVOCACY
In recent years, varying advocacy techniques have been employed by NGOs and politicians in their efforts to effect change in their countries with regard to legal gender recognition. While cultural and political factors play a key role in the approach to be taken, there are certain techniques that emerge as being effective in progressing trans rights in the ‘good practice’ countries.

1. Target youth politicians

Activists found it particularly helpful to get youth wings political parties on side, as main wings of political parties are often keen to listen and take the views of their younger counterparts seriously. In some cases, activists found it useful to make the point that youth politicians are the senior politicians of the future and that any changes that they are in favour of will inevitably be the policies of the future and are more likely to be on “the right side of history”. Some campaigns found that allowing youth politicians to advocate for legal gender recognition to be extended to minors was compelling, perhaps because they are well placed to empathise with the situation of their peers.”

Social media certainly seems to have greater negative impact on the mental health of young women than it does men. Young women are probably using if for different reasons and to meeet different sorts of emotional needs than boys and men, more generally.

Females are maybe more relationship oriented and so belonging and being 'liked' is important; and if your social or friendship group has identified itself as, or aligned itself with certain political schools of thought then you may well be more likley to go along with them, without question.

It's because it's part of the culture war. To many people, especially educated women (and men), being a trans ally is the same as supporting all the other progressive causes. There is a hive mind where they cannot distinguish between the different elements.

So you get the absurd situation where trans allies will scream and shout at gender realists but on issues like the grooming gangs they are completely silent.

That's how you get young women identifying as transmen or non binary too. They see the relative status and expectations of men and women in our society, and are offered the lie that you can choose which one to be - in that context why would you choose to be a woman?

I’d hazard a guess at ‘because their opinion about the topic is different’

Yeah , I had one of the ‘old school’ TW full surgery friends about thirty five years ago - but he/she wasn’t ‘ lovely’ they were ( just as before) self centred and a bit of a bully . Interesting and intelligent as a bloke ( though self obsessed) , much less so as a ‘woman’. I met some of his/ her simultaneously transitioning friends and they were just the same. I don’t know where all the self effacing lovely ones were….

Very glad to hear this. Gives me hope.

I think TWAW and TMAM is very much part of the educated mindset. It's not what most people think.

YY, it’s a trope.

Well yes, people have all kind of opinions. This thread is looking at why that is. “Trans women are women: no debate” is a literally absurd statement, and I can’t take anyone seriously who comes out with it. It’s just a thought terminating cliche that people come out with.

It's a strange one.

I think putting sex aside, many people, male and female just want to pick a side that they want to believe is right & represents them in a certain way. Trans rights were and still are for many a badge of inclusion, progression and 'understanding of a complex situation'. It's another add on to other liberal causes / way of thinking.

But it's blinkered, irrational and utterly short sighted when given literally more than 2 minutes of thought. So I can't understand, given all the discussion we've had that so many women still double down, other than they are just not that bright or good at critical thinking - yes, even the professionals.

The old school therapy was bracingly sexist. The thing about using women's toilets was required by doctors (male - as far as i know in the UK in the 60s and 70s there were extremely few doctors involved in this treatment and all of them were male) before signing off on medical or surgical transition. In 2015 I was handed materials to use in sessions with this client group which were definitely a few years old (welcome to the NHS) but which made me gasp and then boil with fury - one page started 'Your outfit is elegant, your nails are perfect, your makeup is immaculate - you're the picture of a beautiful woman!...' - I was standing in a treatment room reading this while wearing my usual extremely basic work outfit which wasn't far off surgical scrubs, and having felt fine until that point, suddenly wondered what the fuck was supposed to be happening if I was the person who apparently was there to teach male people how to do femininity, having spent my life happily ignoring its strictures. That was all a load of old cobblers frankly (though I doubt it's all been cleaned out, either in theory or in practice) and I'm sure a lot of the clients tbh would have agreed.

The new gender focus is all supposed to be different, it's supposed to be led by the transitioners, anti-sexist and purely about bodily autonomy and authenticity, and I agree with the OP that women are at the forefront of it. Not just as supporters and increasingly as clients for transition, but in the power structures. Polly Carmichael, Ruth Hunt, Harriet Harman, Stephen Whittle have all been front and centre. The thing is, I get it to some extent. I dislike it when GC posts slide towards insisting that gender roles are important. I react strongly when some bloke posts gleefully that 'this is the natural outcome of feminism' because I don't think so at all, but plenty of female theorists and supporters would say exactly that, and that's why they support it. And yet to me, the shiny new version looks almost as anti feminist as the old, just in a different way.

I suspect a lot of women's organisations and groups were targeted early on to take on a transwoman, and given the 'education' that goes with it. This is like a cross between time share selling and a religious testimony which is quite painful. It isolates individuals and makes it very hard for them to say no.

We know that women's prisons were targeted straight away after the EA2010 was passed - James Morton wrote about it.

I mean, both sides of this debate have done their research and that research ultimately clashes, which is prevalent across almost all significant debates and was ever thus. What you’re exposed to and what you surround yourself with / seek for yourself based on a view you have already or what you feel is right and want to pursue, will be what provides the information that will ‘mature’ your view on a topic. I don’t think it’s unique to this debate, it’s just how public opinion works, particularly in the age of the internet, social media, and the very polarised corners of those places.

No both sides of the debate haven’t done their research, and that is shown up time and again. It’s why “no debate” is such a popular tactic. But I get that “both sides” is easy for you to come out with.

If you or anyone else wants to make a coherent case for why I should believe a self selecting group of men should be considered as women @Wonderwhynosunshine I’m all ears.