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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Most people agree with us.

151 replies

ArabellaScott · 19/05/2025 10:38

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/supreme-court-trans-public-opinion-b2753173.html

'[A] YouGov poll of 2,106 adults in Great Britain found that 63 per cent believe the Supreme Court made the correct decision in its April ruling.
The survey also revealed that 52 per cent of respondents now feel the law regarding women’s rights and their application to transgender people is clearer following the decision.
While 13 per cent said the ruling would have a positive impact on them and 6 per cent said it would be negative, more than three quarters of people (77 per cent) said the ruling would make no real difference to them.
The poll also addressed the issue of transgender women's participation in sports. Nearly three-quarters (74 per cent) of those surveyed agreed with the decisions made by some sporting bodies to ban transgender women from women’s competitions following the ruling.'

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/national/25172574.survey-suggests-people-think-supreme-court-gender-ruling-right/

Survey suggests most people think Supreme Court gender ruling was right

More than 2,100 adults were surveyed on their responses to the decision

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/supreme-court-trans-public-opinion-b2753173.html

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 19/05/2025 10:41

And on the subject of loos:

'On the question of toilets, around a fifth of respondents felt transgender men and women should use whichever facilities they prefer, while around two fifths said unisex toilets should be used.
Asked about which toilets transgender people should use, a fifth of those surveyed felt transgender women should use the men’s toilets, while 14 per cent said they should use the women’s toilets.
Some 17 per cent said transgender men should use the men’s toilets and the same proportion said they should use the women’s toilets.
In the wake of the Supreme Court ruling, Cabinet Office minister Pat McFadden said the “logical consequence of the judgment” was that people will have to use toilets, changing rooms and other facilities of their biological sex.'

I wonder if they checked what people understood by 'transgender women'?

I can't find the survey data on Yougov as yet.

OP posts:
moto748e · 19/05/2025 11:08

That is surely still an issue, so there's still the risk of GIGO. Why can't they make the wording crystal-clear? If you're going to use terms like 'transgender women', define exactly what you mean by that. Otherwise your results aren't going to be any more accurate than the Census, are they?

ArabellaScott · 19/05/2025 11:19

Well,.they may well have done so, I just haven't seen it yet!

OP posts:
NPET · 19/05/2025 12:03

All I care about is that there is never a p in the Ladies!

No - OK I don't JUST care about that, but isn't that the most important thing?

FuzzyPuffling · 19/05/2025 12:03

They're also using "a fifth" and "14%" in the same sentence. Annoying. Are they deliberately trying to make it hard to compare stats?

Igmum · 19/05/2025 12:08

Good - and yes I think the figures would be even higher if they’d explained clearly what TW and TM are - but even without that it’s good to see the sensible majority here.

lnks · 19/05/2025 12:09

FuzzyPuffling · 19/05/2025 12:03

They're also using "a fifth" and "14%" in the same sentence. Annoying. Are they deliberately trying to make it hard to compare stats?

I think so.

OP posts:
moto748e · 19/05/2025 13:04

It's not funny anymore, though, is it? I find reading the likes of that deeply depressing. All very well to say, ach, they're all loons (they'd say the same, of course). But a substantial proportion of our educated classes think like that. And they are not going to change their minds in a hurry.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 19/05/2025 14:52

I think this comment from reddit is perceptive, though:

The thing to remember ... is that the people who disagree care a lot more. If you’re somebody who doesn’t know any trans people and doesn’t care enough to read into it, you’re going to just broadly nod and go “yeah, I suppose biology matters?” and move on. They aren’t going to change their vote based on how political parties respond to that. ... TERFs are not a majority, they’re as much a minority we are. The majority are low-information voters who are low-salience on the issue, which means they’re ... easy to sway.

TRAs and TERFs are knowledgeable, and they care. The general public is sex realist, thinks trans is a bit nonsensical, but mostly doesn't care that much. And the political class (junior ministers and civil servants) are inclined to believe in GI.

TRAs are working right now with sympathetic insiders to subvert the process of implementing the ruling. They've already got the consultation period extended, and it's surely only a matter of time before Falkner is ousted in favour of a pro-trans placeman who will deliver a watered-down guidance that takes away as much as they can of what we've gained. (Yes, I am paranoid, since you ask.)

When that happens, the general public might not even notice.

GwenEdinburgh · 19/05/2025 16:20

I would be shocked if Labour replace Falkner with a more pro-trans figure. They'll either be someone with similarly strong views, like Akua Reindorf, or someone who broadly agrees with the 'new norm' of accepting the SC ruling and seeing trans women as males. And I say this as a trans woman. Labour want this issue put to bed, they absolutely don't want to re-open this with a trans-sympathetic EHRC chair who will undo the work of Falkner and the SC ruling. If they do, they'll have several more years of Keir Starmer being asked if a woman can have a penis, and headlines with Starmer hating women's rights. The people behind Starmer (Morgan McSweeney et al) won't allow a pro-trans person to take over, not because they care about women, but because they don't want the media hostility.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 20/05/2025 09:00

@GwenEdinburgh

Seeing trans women as males is not inconsistent with a view that the law still permits them to use women-only spaces as a special exception, and Harriet Harman, for example, has expressed this view: it's not completely wild.

I agree that she would be an unpopular choice with the media (apart from the Guardian and the BBC), but my contacts who work in the area tell me that Falkner is very unpopular within the Westminster bubble.

If you feel able to answer, as a trans woman, I would be interested to hear what you hope for or fear, and how you think things should, or will, play out. The current situation seems just as polarised as ever.

GwenEdinburgh · 20/05/2025 11:14

Thank you for your thoughtful reply and question. Yes, the situation seems polarised, but also overwhelmingly in the gender-critical movement's favour, not only politically and with the media but also with the general population. Year by year, polls show an increasing number of women who are uncomfortable with trans women in women-only spaces like toilets (never mind far more controversial spaces like rape-crisis centres, prisons, and even changing rooms, where the views are even more trenchant).

Something I noticed in Bluesky discussions yesterday was a response to Jolyon Maugham of the Good Law Project, who was highly critical of the YouGov poll sponsored by Sex Matters and which shows the majority of the population welcoming the Supreme Court ruling. But two trans women responded with a compelling argument, telling Maugham he didn't understand how prevalent the gender-critical position in society is now, and that the YouGov poll is reflective of how things really are, regardless of how the questions are framed. Issues like sport were mentioned as being a luxury issue at this point; trans women are genuinely afraid and distressed by a blanket-ban on toilets (which I think is the women-only space that most trans women use). Whenever the trans community sees some chink of light, meanwhile, reality soon follows, for example yesterday evening with news of the Labour Party likely to stop trans women from being on women-only short-lists, which frankly speaking, seems really obvious to me following the SC ruling (which specifically dealt with women-only short-lists).

My own feeling is that Sonia Sodha in her last Observer article has probably identified the likely direction of travel, about the need for trans people to forget about women-only spaces and to focus on developing gender-neutral spaces, trans-centred services, trans-only short-lists, etc. However, the toilet issue (and to some degree, changing rooms in work places) remains a huge issue, because logistically most buildings are designed to expand and add rooms to cater for so small a demographic. I think most trans women will have no choice but to continue taking the risk of using women-only public toilets and hope nothing terrible happens. I think most trans women are far more afraid of men's toilets than women's, and would rather be called out in a women's toilet than attacked in a men's.

You say at the beginning:

"Seeing trans women as males is not inconsistent with a view that the law still permits them to use women-only spaces as a special exception, and Harriet Harman, for example, has expressed this view: it's not completely wild."

I would embrace this. I think many trans women would, at this point, and if not now, then certainly when the EHRC's statutory guidance comes into force. The gender-critical movement seems too well organised (Sex Matters seems to be running rings round any trans-advocacy charity) and their view of trans women too prevalent now. If most women are willing to use their statutory rights to assert their sex-based beliefs, and enforce and restrict women-only spaces to 'biological women' at places like the workplace and retail, then having a special exception for trans women for this most necessary of facilities seems like something I would certainly accept.

BigfootSmallButtons · 20/05/2025 14:10

Never in a million years are they going to campaign for their own spaces.

Their movement is based on women-hate and teaching women a lesson. They'll do everything and anything to subvert the ruling.

There is no victory until the general public realise the extent of the scandal that's unfolded beneath their noses and there becomes no such thing as "trans".

GwenEdinburgh · 20/05/2025 14:21

Wow. I enjoyed communicating with theilltemperedqueenofspacetime, they came across as being gender-critical moderate and it felt so good to have that kind of dialogue. But for you to demand that there be 'no such thing as trans,' is not only unhelpful, but also unrealistic. Trans women like me are not going to stop existing. I think we all have to learn to get along. Perhaps the SC ruling makes things simpler now, women and trans women may need to continue sharing certain spaces (e.g. public toilets) because there's little logistical alternative, but in other ways, perhaps trans rights and women's sex-based rights will learn to rub along now. You seem to be looking for a war, but I think a lot of us are exhausted, tbh.

maltravers · 20/05/2025 14:30

I really don’t think women picked this fight/war. We bent until we snapped. My snapping point was when the Lancet was referring to women as “people with vaginas”, Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP were throwing out any amendment to their bill to consider safeguarding women (roll up rapists and feel free to identify as women during your trial and get access to victims during your prison time), men started winning women’s medals and places in sports. What did trans people expect? It was so abusive. And that’s before you consider kids (I have a number of uni peers with girls who have transitioned and cut off their breasts or will do shortly). Come for our kids and we’ll come for you.

WithSilverBells · 20/05/2025 14:32

If males are allowed into separate-sex toilets for females then they cease to be separate-sex and thereby lose the protections for sex discrimination under the Equality Act. Males, however they identify, are not going to be allowed to use women's toilets.

CassOle · 20/05/2025 14:37

Decent males, including those with trans identities - who call themselves transwomen/trans women - will stay out of female single-sex spaces including toilets. They should not use them as they are male, they know they are male, and therefore they will abide by the law.

There are alternative toilets - the men's and any unisex provision available. Campaign for more unisex toilets if that is what is needed.

There will be no 'rubbing along' when males constantly over-ride the law and the wishes of females. The answer is 'no'.

GwenEdinburgh · 20/05/2025 14:39

Again, I find your language and framing of trans people extreme: "Come for our kids and we’ll come for you." You're associating trans people with child abuse?

WithSilverBells · 20/05/2025 14:57

@GwenEdinburgh I think most trans women are far more afraid of men's toilets than women's, and would rather be called out in a women's toilet than attacked in a men's.

Can you see how that centres trans-identifying males? You are saying that some men do not feel safe in the men's toilets so they will use the women's toilets and make women feel unsafe instead.

GwenEdinburgh · 20/05/2025 15:02

I wouldn't describe trans women as men, WithSilverBells, I don't think they are (anymore). If they were, they wouldn't be covered by the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' to signify their move away from manhood. I don't see it as binary as you, I guess.

EminentSqueezes · 20/05/2025 15:02

"I think most trans women are far more afraid of men's toilets than women's, and would rather be called out in a women's toilet than attacked in a men's."

Is there any verified report of a trans identifying male being attacked in the men's? It could be that you have been brainwashed by all the "most marginalised" "most vulnerable" etc and that actually, no man really cares.

Women care, does that matter to you?

And for goodness sakes, nobody wants anyone to stop existing. Possibly the pp was imagining a future where men understood that it was fine to be a more feminine male and continue using men's spaces.

WithSilverBells · 20/05/2025 15:04

GwenEdinburgh · 20/05/2025 15:02

I wouldn't describe trans women as men, WithSilverBells, I don't think they are (anymore). If they were, they wouldn't be covered by the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' to signify their move away from manhood. I don't see it as binary as you, I guess.

But the Supreme Court does see sex as binary. And gender reassignment is about gender expression, nothing to do with sex.

TheignT · 20/05/2025 15:07

FuzzyPuffling · 19/05/2025 12:03

They're also using "a fifth" and "14%" in the same sentence. Annoying. Are they deliberately trying to make it hard to compare stats?

I thought they were. Can't see any other reason.

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