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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

An update to the WI Announcement thread. My DH just got a reply to his application to join them.

966 replies

Another2Cats · 12/05/2025 19:49

This is not a thread about a thread, but recently there was a thread about the Womens Institute announcement that they would not be implementing the SC ruling anytime soon.

I was reading the thread at the time and, entirely jokingly, I suggested to my DH that he should apply to join the WI and see what they say.

So he did just that (he totally gets the GC point of view) and I posted about this at the time:

Another2Cats · 08/05/2025 19:45

I just got my DH to send an email to them:

Hello,

My name is Xxxx (very obviously masculine name). I just read your transgender policy and understand that you accept men.

I am a man and would like to join the local WI group in [xxxx city] (the nearest branch for me is in yyyy [suburb of xxxx city]).

Should I just turn up next Wednesday evening and sign up?

I'm really waiting with bated breath to see what sort of response there is.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5330297-womens-institute-announcement?reply=144143149
.

Well, it turns out that they sent a response this lunchtime.

This is their reply (although with contact details redacted):

Good morning,

Thank you for your enquiry. Our policy states that “WI membership is open to all women who live as women, including transgender women.” If you fit within this statement, you will be more than welcome to attend. I am afraid the WI is not open to men.

Kind regards,

[Redacted]

[Name Redacted]
Federation Secretary
[Two cities - well, a city and a town - redacted] Federation of WIs CIO
[Address redacted]
[Telephone number redacted]
Office hours: Tues, Weds, Thurs 9am – 1pm

Please note the new email address – [Redacted]
.

I don't know, is this something that DH should take up with the EHRC now that he has it in writing?

Women’s institute announcement | Mumsnet

Published earlier today.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5330297-womens-institute-announcement

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Another2Cats · 29/06/2025 08:08

Brefugee · 28/06/2025 14:05

sorry, i should have been more clear. They don't claim to be single sex. They treat the word "woman" as a gender. So no men who identify as men. No women who identify as men. But anyone who identifies as a woman can go in.

I think we have more chance gettning the Hampstead ladies pond back, than getting the WI to say "no men, however they identify"

"I think we have more chance gettning the Hampstead ladies pond back"

Sex Matters have started on that. They sent a letter before action to the City of london Corporation on the 17th June. They asked for a reply by 1st July.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/publications/letter-before-claim-on-kenwood-ladies-pond/

Letter before claim on Kenwood Ladies' Pond

We have sent a letter before claim to the Corporation of London over its failure to take heed of the Supreme Court's judgment and ensure that the Kenwood

https://sex-matters.org/posts/publications/letter-before-claim-on-kenwood-ladies-pond/

OP posts:
Datun · 29/06/2025 08:19

Seriestwo · 29/06/2025 07:28

Malcolm Clark has a thread on the WI’s relaxed attitude towards paediphile supporters. x.com/twisterfilm/status/1938957334530666964?s=46

Good Lord. What has happened to the WI?

They've had a paedophile promoter, a man who draws up kill lists of people who disagree with his membership, and a fetishist. All welcomed.

Another2Cats · 29/06/2025 08:24

PepeParapluie · 28/06/2025 16:40

I have been following this but from a distance. OP you and your husband are being courageous taking this on, particularly via formal legal proceedings. You sound eminently sensible and well informed and much more able to pursue this than average litigants in person would be.

But I’d really echo those suggesting you get representation or legal input on this (if you don’t have it in the background already) - the case will be important if it progresses, it could feasibly be a test case for how the legal landscape works post FWS and set precedent for other decisions if it is appealed by either party. It is also likely to attract media attention at some point. Litigation is so risky and so stressful; a professional team would be able to shield you from some of the worst of that and guide you through it. It must be worth approaching FSU, Sex Matters etc to see if there might be support available, either pro bono or funded (for which I’m sure you’d get lots of crowd funding).

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

"...it could feasibly be a test case for how the legal landscape works post FWS and set precedent for other decisions if it is appealed by either party. It is also likely to attract media attention at some point."

Yes, DH is very aware of this particular point. I won't say any more but (to use the American term) this isn't his first rodeo.
.

"It must be worth approaching..."

Things are going on in the background that I would prefer not to talk about in public at the moment.

OP posts:
Another2Cats · 29/06/2025 08:27

WithSilverBells · 28/06/2025 16:58

I’d really echo those suggesting you get representation or legal input on this (if you don’t have it in the background already) - the case will be important if it progresses, it could feasibly be a test case for how the legal landscape works post FWS and set precedent for other decisions if it is appealed by either party.

It is one thing to read the Equality Act and to make intelligent and informed arguments about it. The OP and lots of women on here are doing that admirably. But we know bugger all about Case Law and that will require an experienced legal expert.
I'm already concerned that the OP has been put in the situation of having had a conversation with the other side's lawyers, with no lawyer of their own present.

"I'm already concerned that the OP has been put in the situation of having had a conversation with the other side's lawyers, with no lawyer of their own present."

Thank you for your concern WithSilverBells, it is appreciated.

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 29/06/2025 08:31

Datun · 29/06/2025 08:19

Good Lord. What has happened to the WI?

They've had a paedophile promoter, a man who draws up kill lists of people who disagree with his membership, and a fetishist. All welcomed.

This is why by taking this case to court with sufficient financial backing could do a great deal of good.

And possibly why very strenuous efforts will be undertaken in order to prevent it going to court.

Datun · 29/06/2025 08:37

borntobequiet · 29/06/2025 08:31

This is why by taking this case to court with sufficient financial backing could do a great deal of good.

And possibly why very strenuous efforts will be undertaken in order to prevent it going to court.

Edited

I agree completely.

The tactic of installing people in positions of authority and power in these organisations really bloody works.

I'm sure most of the membership either don't know, or would disagree with inviting people like that.

And yet, their logo is merrily trans rainbow washed, make it look like a trans organisation

Another2Cats · 29/06/2025 08:42

KnottyAuty · 28/06/2025 17:20

And just so I understand the points above:

  1. The WI is a single sex association which uses an exception in the EA to exclude males.
  2. They propose a legal defence that they wish to allow male/TIM members as a positive action against the detriment caused by their own single sex exemption (ETA - TIMs being a group which has no shared protected characteristic with women)

Please tell me I’ve misunderstood?!

Edited

"Please tell me I’ve misunderstood?!"

Yes, slightly.

The detriment that they are seeking to overcome is not caused by lack of membership of the WI but just general disadvantage that TIM suffer in general life.

They say that by the WI offering them things like help with leadership skills, mentoring, confidence building etc then this is closely connected with helping TIM overcome the disadvantages that they suffer in life. Or so they say.

In the case I mentioned above with the Haredi Jews, the court said that Haredi Jews in particular (partly due to their appearance) are subject to racially aggravated harassment etc and also prejudice when trying to rent properties in the private sector.

They also have a need for larger houses because they typically have very large families.

So, it was ok for the Housing Association to discriminate under S158 as the provision of larger homes to Haredi Jews was closely connected with overcoming the disadvantages and particular needs they had.
.

In contrast, what the WI can offer TIM to help them overcome any disadvantages they faced I am not entirely clear.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 29/06/2025 08:44

They say that by the WI offering them things like help with leadership skills, mentoring, confidence building etc then this is closely connected with helping TIM overcome the disadvantages that they suffer in life. Or so they say.

Since when was that in their charitable objectives?

ArabellaScott · 29/06/2025 08:45

The argument is that women can help TIMs learn how to be women, perhaps?

ArabellaScott · 29/06/2025 08:46

Womens lives are not a playground for inadequate men.

Another2Cats · 29/06/2025 08:49

Firenzo · 28/06/2025 18:57

Oh there’s actually a Scottish WI, separate entity but the inclusion policy is incredibly woolly - doesn’t make it clear what a transgender woman is, and if I didn’t know better I would assume that would be a trans identified female.

No scary flags though on their website.

Inclusion policy:

https://www.theswi.org.uk/Equality,%20Diversity%20and%20Inclusion%20Policy.pdf

sorry for the slight detail -and if I’ve missed anyone discussing the Scottish WI previously.

Thanks. Yes, the Scottish WI is an entirely different organisation (although they are also TWAW).

It's funny looking back on it now, but it was very frustrating for my DH at the time. The name of the WI did cause problems when he commenced the claim.

So as not to cause any issues, he commenced the claim using the full name of the WI as the defendant. The full name is:

The National Federation of Women's Institutes of England, Wales, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man

So that's what he put down as the Defendant.

He then got an email back from the court saying that the name was too long for their computer system so they couldn't issue the claim. Would he please come up with a different name for the defendant?

So he went with National Federation of Women's Institutes instead.

OP posts:
Datun · 29/06/2025 08:55

ArabellaScott · 29/06/2025 08:44

They say that by the WI offering them things like help with leadership skills, mentoring, confidence building etc then this is closely connected with helping TIM overcome the disadvantages that they suffer in life. Or so they say.

Since when was that in their charitable objectives?

I have to say, if there wasn't so much at stake, I would be very interested in watching lawyers argue that men colonising women's spaces needed help with leadership skills and confidence boosting.

SidewaysOtter · 29/06/2025 09:24

To go with the example of the housing association, presumably their remit is to provide housing to all and that they prioritise certain groups within that “all” in order to correct an imbalance seems reasonable.

If they were a housing organisation that housed single people and they suddenly started prioritising families (of whatever religion etc.) then that would be outside their remit.

The latter scenario seems to be what’s going on here: an organisation set up for women is supporting a subset of men on the basis that there is an imbalance to correct, even though it’s outside their remit. Obviously the issue is blurred by the whole TWAW mindset, though.

Datun · 29/06/2025 09:29

Obviously the issue is blurred by the whole TWAW mindset, though.

It's so weird. The disadvantage can't be because they're women. It has to be because they're trans, in which case it's because they're men.

Because it's got nothing to do with actually being trans, as women who are trans aren't welcome!

edited to add and the argument that transwomen are more disadvantaged than transmen would fall apart in a heartbeat.

Iamnotalemming · 29/06/2025 09:40

Thanks @Another2Cats for all the updates.

I just wanted to add an idea for later consideration in the litigation (assuming it continues). There is a useful tool in the Civil Procedure Rules, Part 18, under which a party can Request Further Information. So when you get the Defence, if you think the WI hasn't explained itself properly (eg what on earth is the disadvantage, what precisely is the WI doing for these poor disadvantaged souls etc) you could consider doing one of these.

borntobequiet · 29/06/2025 09:41

Yes - literally none of it makes sense. But we know that’s a feature, not a bug.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/06/2025 09:48

SidewaysOtter · 29/06/2025 09:24

To go with the example of the housing association, presumably their remit is to provide housing to all and that they prioritise certain groups within that “all” in order to correct an imbalance seems reasonable.

If they were a housing organisation that housed single people and they suddenly started prioritising families (of whatever religion etc.) then that would be outside their remit.

The latter scenario seems to be what’s going on here: an organisation set up for women is supporting a subset of men on the basis that there is an imbalance to correct, even though it’s outside their remit. Obviously the issue is blurred by the whole TWAW mindset, though.

This is my understanding too. Positive action can be used to provide some advantage to a subgroup of the people that the organisations always serves.

What the WI is doing isn't PA I don't think. They only serve women in their meetings, so could not use PA to encourage subsets of men to join meetings.

I have glanced through the housing case above and I don't think it supports their argument at all (again, IANAL). I know there are some people on MN who will make far less heave weather od the reading than me though Grin

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 09:51

Datun · 29/06/2025 08:55

I have to say, if there wasn't so much at stake, I would be very interested in watching lawyers argue that men colonising women's spaces needed help with leadership skills and confidence boosting.

Exactly this!

ETA - if the WI do try this argument then requesting information on how many TIMs are on the local and national committees versus just being ordinary members might provide enlightening. I’d guess that there are very view who have a problem being assertive and getting nominated to authority positions…

BundleBoogie · 29/06/2025 10:51

BettyBooper · 28/06/2025 11:12

So if the other group was not TIM but say, Jewish men, who were being allegedly disadvantaged, would their proportionate action to let them into the WI claim hold?

It would sound like a ridiculous argument.

Good point. I hear that young white boys from poor backgrounds are disadvantaged and need extra help - they’ll need to open up membership to them as well.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 29/06/2025 10:54

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 09:51

Exactly this!

ETA - if the WI do try this argument then requesting information on how many TIMs are on the local and national committees versus just being ordinary members might provide enlightening. I’d guess that there are very view who have a problem being assertive and getting nominated to authority positions…

Edited

Except that of course how would they possibly have that data? Because they won’t have recorded the TiMs as anything except women…

🙄

Manderleyagain · 29/06/2025 11:15

It's worth remembering (everyone, not OP particularly as I'm sure they are both well aware) that if this does get to court and there is any publicity the case will be reported as 'man who wants to join the WI', 'man who wants to turn the WI into a mixed sex organisation', ' man who doesn't want the WI to be for women only'. Whatever our hope about the organisation being forced to accept that it can't be both single sex and include some of the opposite sex, the legal point being made (if I've understood) is that a man is suffering sex discrimination. The resolution being sought (presumably) is that he will be admitted as a member. If the jkr fund gave money it would be 'jkr helps man join the WI', so I can understand why OP doesn't think the jkr fund is a goer.

I would chip in for legal representation to take the case further as I think the policy is currently illegal, but it will be difficult to spin it if it does go all the way.

I actually think on freedom of association grounds that an organisation should be allowed to be for women and trans people if they want (tho i think the law doesn't allow it at the mo) but the wi would have to change its constitution to do so, and then the discussion would have to be public.

Manderleyagain · 29/06/2025 11:18

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 29/06/2025 10:54

Except that of course how would they possibly have that data? Because they won’t have recorded the TiMs as anything except women…

🙄

Which will rather undermine their claim that it's all a positive acton programme.

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 11:25

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 29/06/2025 10:54

Except that of course how would they possibly have that data? Because they won’t have recorded the TiMs as anything except women…

🙄

Good point - doesnt that undermine their claim that this is a special group for positive action? If they don’t know who they are how can they help?

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 11:26

Manderleyagain · 29/06/2025 11:15

It's worth remembering (everyone, not OP particularly as I'm sure they are both well aware) that if this does get to court and there is any publicity the case will be reported as 'man who wants to join the WI', 'man who wants to turn the WI into a mixed sex organisation', ' man who doesn't want the WI to be for women only'. Whatever our hope about the organisation being forced to accept that it can't be both single sex and include some of the opposite sex, the legal point being made (if I've understood) is that a man is suffering sex discrimination. The resolution being sought (presumably) is that he will be admitted as a member. If the jkr fund gave money it would be 'jkr helps man join the WI', so I can understand why OP doesn't think the jkr fund is a goer.

I would chip in for legal representation to take the case further as I think the policy is currently illegal, but it will be difficult to spin it if it does go all the way.

I actually think on freedom of association grounds that an organisation should be allowed to be for women and trans people if they want (tho i think the law doesn't allow it at the mo) but the wi would have to change its constitution to do so, and then the discussion would have to be public.

Agree!

Datun · 29/06/2025 11:29

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 09:51

Exactly this!

ETA - if the WI do try this argument then requesting information on how many TIMs are on the local and national committees versus just being ordinary members might provide enlightening. I’d guess that there are very view who have a problem being assertive and getting nominated to authority positions…

Edited

It would be an absolute piece of piss to have a list of people who identified as trans, divided into leadership positions, and non-leadership positions, and watch it separate into male and female almost exclusively.

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