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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

An update to the WI Announcement thread. My DH just got a reply to his application to join them.

966 replies

Another2Cats · 12/05/2025 19:49

This is not a thread about a thread, but recently there was a thread about the Womens Institute announcement that they would not be implementing the SC ruling anytime soon.

I was reading the thread at the time and, entirely jokingly, I suggested to my DH that he should apply to join the WI and see what they say.

So he did just that (he totally gets the GC point of view) and I posted about this at the time:

Another2Cats · 08/05/2025 19:45

I just got my DH to send an email to them:

Hello,

My name is Xxxx (very obviously masculine name). I just read your transgender policy and understand that you accept men.

I am a man and would like to join the local WI group in [xxxx city] (the nearest branch for me is in yyyy [suburb of xxxx city]).

Should I just turn up next Wednesday evening and sign up?

I'm really waiting with bated breath to see what sort of response there is.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5330297-womens-institute-announcement?reply=144143149
.

Well, it turns out that they sent a response this lunchtime.

This is their reply (although with contact details redacted):

Good morning,

Thank you for your enquiry. Our policy states that “WI membership is open to all women who live as women, including transgender women.” If you fit within this statement, you will be more than welcome to attend. I am afraid the WI is not open to men.

Kind regards,

[Redacted]

[Name Redacted]
Federation Secretary
[Two cities - well, a city and a town - redacted] Federation of WIs CIO
[Address redacted]
[Telephone number redacted]
Office hours: Tues, Weds, Thurs 9am – 1pm

Please note the new email address – [Redacted]
.

I don't know, is this something that DH should take up with the EHRC now that he has it in writing?

Women’s institute announcement | Mumsnet

Published earlier today.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5330297-womens-institute-announcement

OP posts:
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ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 12:53

TheOtherRaven · 28/06/2025 10:48

So their case is basically it's ok to cause detriment to women and remove the purpose of the group for them, because these men matter more.

I don't think it'll stand up.

Women must lose their own women only clubs because some special men are so sad.

Its not reasonable, imo.

cheesecakewrestler · 28/06/2025 12:54

As is often said - women are not a support group for TIMs.

illinivich · 28/06/2025 12:55

What has happened is that legal departments have allowed inclusivity departments to write the protected characteristics to include gender, either alongside sex or to replace it completely.

The same departments are now spending their energy pretending its complex rather than admitting that they fucked up in the first place. And are going to spend a lot of their employers money in the process.

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 12:56

Re representation: I've been told (by a lawyer) that courts sometimes look more favourably on people bringing a case on their own without representation. Not sure that it woild be wise in this case, just a thought, though.

MyAmpleSheep · 28/06/2025 12:57

SternJoyousBee · 28/06/2025 11:53

I agree. I think they hoped to baffle your DH’s brains with their bullshit.

Best option for the WI: the OP backs down

Best option for the WI's lawyers: the OP continues, and they face off in court unrepresented. That way the lawyers get a fat fee and a victory for the client, or more fat fees on appeal. The lawyers don't really care who wins the case.

Best option for the OP and for women: to face down the WI in court with expert representation.

MyAmpleSheep · 28/06/2025 13:02

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 12:56

Re representation: I've been told (by a lawyer) that courts sometimes look more favourably on people bringing a case on their own without representation. Not sure that it woild be wise in this case, just a thought, though.

In a case where the law is clear and the facts are contested? Sure.

In a case defended on the interpretation of a rarely-used part of a two hundred page act of Parliament whose last serious question went all the way to the Supreme Court? Couldn't disagree more.

Judges are professional barristers and expect need other professional barristers on both sides to help them form the correct understanding of how the law is to be applied, by making skilled argument in reference to prior cases and laws.

FarriersGirl · 28/06/2025 13:06

Best option for the OP and for women: to face down the WI in court with expert representation.

This is spot on. Like many others I would happily garden for this. The debate on this thread is fascinating.

zenai · 28/06/2025 13:06

Would the JKR legal fund be relevant here I wonder?

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 13:07

cheesecakewrestler · 28/06/2025 12:54

As is often said - women are not a support group for TIMs.

It's suggesting that women should lose their rights in order to give men more support. Highly fucking offensive given that women were afforded those rights on the basis of being the disadvantaged sex. By men.

It's an appeal to women to please not make men sad by excluding them. And given that it appeals to the vastly sexist underpinning sentiment of society, stands a fair chance of being met with agreement by all those who believe that women must place the wellbeing of men over that of their own. Which is a fair few.

Men were made so terriby sad at being excluded from the disadvantaged group they must now be pandered to, like a millionaire being sad at being excluded from the workhouse must now be admitted, and peasant women forced to express compassion at their pretend straitened circumstances (it's lonely at the top), so the rich man can play make believe and indulge his own fantasies of subjugation, lest those peasants be condemned for their callous bigotry against the rich. Its an absurd grotesquery.

MyPresumablyScrotum · 28/06/2025 13:11

IANAL but what a load of utter bollocks.

The WI was set up for women. Not for "disadvantaged" men to be supported by those women.

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 13:11

Added to that, we know some rich men find the distress of peasant women exciting. Fetishise it.

Added to that, we're not allowed to mention their excitement.

Layer upon fucking layer of indignity and control piled on women in the interests of male support, being kind to males, being understanding, pretending not to notice the males who are openly getting off, not saying the wrong words, knowing that some men delight SPECIFICALLY in this control and subjugation of women.

Fucksake.

TheOtherRaven · 28/06/2025 13:15

Completely agree. It is not innocent 'sadness' that requires Mummy to provide kisses and soothing.

It's a whole lot uglier than that. Although it's not naice to point this very obvious bit out, nor all the court cases and issues that women have managed to get into the press and the public eye.

It is very often sexual. And it is tediously always deeply misogyist.

TheOtherRaven · 28/06/2025 13:17

SternJoyousBee · 28/06/2025 11:59

Or elderly men? Or homeless men?

or…no stay with me here, I know this may be an unorthodox concept, but did they ever think of creating a special scheme to support disadvantaged women, perhaps those who may need single sex spaces?

You would think providing an inclusive accessible space for these disadvantaged groups within the sex class they claim to be providing for would be the first concern.

But again: meet the very special marital partner.

Its always ALL about the men.

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 13:18

I agree again that many men who claim to be trans are deeply vulnerable and disadvantaged. Take Sarah Jane Baker. Undoubtedly had a traumatic childhood. Difficult time in prison. Is marginalised and probably extremely disadvantaged and probably discriminated against for various reasons, not least due to his evident mental health issues.

This does not mean that women should lose their single space group to help make him feel better.

WomensInstituteDeclaration · 28/06/2025 13:20

Thank you so much, this is an amazing update, we knew they would be doubling down, but it's great to see the actual defence that they're coming up with.
Their legal firm represent the Girl Guides as well. so interesting and what a massive waste of members' money - frankly it's disgusting.

WomensInstituteDeclaration · 28/06/2025 13:21

Glad you had a lovely holiday and had a sometime away from this madness.

TheOtherRaven · 28/06/2025 13:21

potpourree · 28/06/2025 12:48

This law firm is licking its lips at having amateur you as its opponent in this important case. The WI has deep pockets and it could be you two up against a leading silk + junior in the court of appeal. And if you lose there, that's a precedent set for every single sex association.

I completely agree OP

This. ^^

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 13:22

Jes Jester. Again, clearly disturbed, struggles with mental health issues, marginalised, discriminated against, often treated badly by security guards and even shunned by his activist friends.

One could feel sorry for him.

Openly admits to his fetishes and excitement at being subjugated and dressing up.

No women's group is obliged to admit him on the basis he is disadvantaged.

Brefugee · 28/06/2025 13:26

i think the biggest fly in the ointment is that the WI doesn't claim to be single sex, does it? Because they just need to say "yeah, no need to be single sex, we are open to anyone who identifies as a woman" and BAM! no transmen and no men.

I don't think this will end well for women who want the WI to be single sex, and i think the only way round it, is to let this play out and then mass-cancel membership and set up a splinter group.

Extravirginolive · 28/06/2025 13:26

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

Datun · 28/06/2025 13:33

I would love to see what disadvantage is alleviated for trans identified men if they join the WI. I'd love to see how they phrase it without sounding hopelessly sexist.

Somewhere to knit? Somewhere to make jam? Somewhere to talk to women? In which case can incels apply? In fact, can any man who buys a lady ticket apply?

Good old WI.

'...empowering and supporting women... giving them a platform for their voices.'

As long as they shut the fuck up about the men who want to colonise all their spaces.

Gundogday · 28/06/2025 13:33

Thank you for the update.

Will sit down and have a proper re-read later as just skimmed read it, but my first impression is, what defines a transwoman (excluding gra certificate)? Who decides ?

Datun · 28/06/2025 13:33

And I agree, OP. This could be a big one.

A lot of people have got donation fatigue. But I have a hunch that this one will wake them right up.

The bloody WI, for fuck's sake.

DuesToTheDirt · 28/06/2025 13:34

The position being taken by the WI is that trans identifying men (TIM) are so disadvantaged and have needs that are different from people who are not trans identifying that it is lawful for the WI to give TIM membership in order to overcome or minimise that disadvantage.

Suppose for a moment that TIM are disadvantaged. Why is it the WI's job to help them? What about disabled men? What about autistic men? What about men who left school with no qualifications? They all have exactly the same things in common with women as TIM do, i.e. nothing links us except being human. If the WI's remit is to support women, I don't see that they have a leg to stand on.