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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Urgent - write to your MP today about back door self ID data bill tomorrow

65 replies

ScrollingLeaves · 06/05/2025 09:13

I am not sure if there has been a thread about this but I just saw this from Sex Matters:

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/urgent-action-email-your-mp-today-on-the-data-bill/

OP posts:
Hyperiaistheworst · 06/05/2025 21:21

Done - thank you. I had read the first few posts of the other thread and naively thought it was a done deal. Added my voice, even though my MP is a TWAW TWIT.

ScrollingLeaves · 06/05/2025 21:22

An extra spur to take the lead from Sex Matters and write to your MP asking them to back the amendment -

there has been an opposite campaign from tras’ quarters asking readers to write against the amendment.
www.thepinknews.com/2025/05/05/why-you-should-be-worried-about-the-uk-data-bill-amendment/

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 07/05/2025 02:17

The Tories have been accused of launching a “dystopian” attack on the trans community by proposing changes to the way personal information is collected by the state.

Shadow technology minister Ben Spencer has tabled an amendment to the government’s Data (Use and Access) Bill which would force public bodies to collect data based on someone’s sex at birth rather than their gender identity.

That would mean organisations like the NHS effectively having to ignore gender recognition certificates – the documentation which allows trans people to update their legal gender on personal documents.

Labour’s huge Commons majority means the Tory amendment is virtually guaranteed to be rejected.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tories-accused-of-dystopian-attack-on-trans-community_uk_681a0f9fe4b035302f245a44

Tories Accused Of 'Dystopian' Attack On Trans Community

"Anyone remotely interested in living in a free, fair and tolerant society should oppose this," one Labour MP said.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tories-accused-of-dystopian-attack-on-trans-community_uk_681a0f9fe4b035302f245a44

ScrollingLeaves · 07/05/2025 12:05

That would mean organisations like the NHS effectively having to ignore gender recognition certificates – the documentation which allows trans people to update their legal gender on personal documents.

Meaning the NHS could give them the correct treatment.

OP posts:
ToThineOwnSelf · 07/05/2025 12:11

Done. Hope it’s not too late today!

ScrollingLeaves · 07/05/2025 12:26

I cannot see what time this will be debated.

OP posts:
ItsCoolForCats · 07/05/2025 14:39

IwantToRetire · 07/05/2025 02:17

The Tories have been accused of launching a “dystopian” attack on the trans community by proposing changes to the way personal information is collected by the state.

Shadow technology minister Ben Spencer has tabled an amendment to the government’s Data (Use and Access) Bill which would force public bodies to collect data based on someone’s sex at birth rather than their gender identity.

That would mean organisations like the NHS effectively having to ignore gender recognition certificates – the documentation which allows trans people to update their legal gender on personal documents.

Labour’s huge Commons majority means the Tory amendment is virtually guaranteed to be rejected.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tories-accused-of-dystopian-attack-on-trans-community_uk_681a0f9fe4b035302f245a44

So we've had the Sullivan review now, which has highlighted the detriment that not collecting accurate data on sex has, particularly when it comes to healthcare, yet articles like this are making the amendment out to be really sinister and nefarious 😐 Honestly, we have such a long way to go with this. It's depressing.

LeftieRightsHoarder · 07/05/2025 14:52

Does anyone know if it’s too late today?

LeftieRightsHoarder · 07/05/2025 15:02

I emailed anyway. Let’s hope some of these captured MPs start waking up to reality.

EweSurname · 07/05/2025 15:15

https://x.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1920119607139950600

"Digital verification could be used to access single-sex services, so it needs to be correct. Failure to act today will bring in self-id by the back door." Shadow Minister of State for
@SciTechgovuk

@DrBenSpencer
speaks to amendment N21 in the
@HouseofCommons
#DataBill debate.

https://x.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1920119607139950600

FigRollsAlly · 07/05/2025 16:30

Labour’s GC MP Tonia Antoniazzi in that clip is saying that there are discussions about this but given that her colleague had just raised how sad and hurt trans people are by the Supreme Court ruling will these discussions go anywhere and will it be too late?

FigRollsAlly · 07/05/2025 16:35

Kudos to Dr Ben Spencer for putting forward this amendment, it’s interesting that he’s an NHS psychiatrist.

TheOtherRaven · 07/05/2025 16:41

The ridiculous comment by the woman MP that implies - although she stops short of saying - feelings are more important than accuracy of data or any of the protections it allows.

Ffs.

LonginesPrime · 07/05/2025 16:44

MP Allison Gardner (Labour) just said (at 16:30) that she supports the accurate recording of sex to protect both women and trans people, but she said NC21 seems like a slippery slope as she was worried if we focus on those two protected characteristics, it would be a slippery slope and she might have to carry around her baptism certificate to prove her religion, and she worries about how she would prove her sexuality.

Way to miss the point.

ScrollingLeaves · 07/05/2025 17:57

Is it all over now? I was not free to watch. Thank. You all for your reports.

OP posts:
LonginesPrime · 07/05/2025 18:06

ScrollingLeaves · 07/05/2025 17:57

Is it all over now? I was not free to watch. Thank. You all for your reports.

Not sure whether it’s all done yet, but in any case, because the data bill is so incredibly sprawling now (writers’ rights around AI training, age of online consent, etc etc), the subjects were all interwoven as different members covered a few issues at a time, so my recommendation would be to wait until the Hansard transcript comes out at the end and then ctrl F it for “sex” to find the relevant bits. Then you can always go back and watch the bits you want at leisure.

Thats what I’m planning to do, anyway.

Manderleyagain · 07/05/2025 20:28

From hansard, Chris Bryant responded to this ammendment for the government. They won't pass it, but they at least seem tk take the issue of accurate data seriously and are still working out how to implement the sullivan review across departments.

"We are opposing the amendment and are not intending to introduce similar legislation.

As I said, data accuracy is important. That is equally true for any data used in a digital verification service. That is why the Government are already engaged in an appropriate and balanced range of work on data standards and data accuracy. We are already developing data standards on the monitoring of diversity information, including sex, via the Data Standards Authority. Following a review, the Office for Statistics Regulation published updated guidance on collecting and reporting data and statistics about sex and gender identity last year, and all Government Departments are now considering how best to address the recommendations of the Sullivan review, which we published. That is the first reason why we will not be supporting this new clause or the amendment today. Simply, we believe the concerns regarding the way in which public authorities process sex and gender data should be considered holistically, taking into account the effects of the Supreme Court ruling and the specific and particular requirements of public authorities. By contrast, the new clause and the amendment would undermine the work the Government are already doing. Giving the Secretary of State a new regulatory rule would undermine the existing processes that ensure compliance with the UK’s data protection.

Secondly, the new clause is misplaced because the Bill does not alter the evidence which can be relied upon to prove sex or gender. Indeed, it does not seek to alter any of the content of data used by digital verification services. Instead, the Bill enables people to do digitally what they can presently do physically, and it is for organisations to consider what specific information they need to verify in their particular circumstances. Any inconsistency between what they can do digitally and what they can do physically would obviously sow further division.

Thirdly, the new clause is unnecessary, because it is very unlikely that digital verification services would be used in many, if not all, of the cases specifically raised by or with hon. Members, such as within the NHS to gain access to single-sex wards or for screening or to enter other female-only spaces. We expect digital verification services to be used primarily to prove things such as one’s right to work, or one’s age, address or professional or educational qualifications, which are not matters where sex or gender is relevant at all.

Fourthly, the new clause goes significantly further than the findings of the Supreme Court. Finally, the proposals have the potential to interfere with the right to respect for private and family life under the Human Rights Act by requiring public authorities to record sex as biological sex in all cases regardless of whether it is justified or proportionate in that given circumstance. In addition, the amendment does not take account of the fact that the Gender Recognition Act 2004 gives those with gender recognition certificates a level of privacy and control over who has access to information about their gender history. As for amendment 39, it will create further uncertainty as it appears to prevent use of clause 45 in all cases involving sex.

As I have set out, while I understand the reason for tabling these amendments, I fear they would create legal confusion, uncertainty and inconsistency. I also note that they were not part of the previous Government’s version of this Bill, in which in nearly all respects this part of the Bill was identical to ours. Given the narrow scope of digital verification service measures, the need to consider this area holistically to ensure alignment with existing legislation, and upcoming EHRC guidance and the breadth of work already being carried out, I hope the new clause and amendments will be withdrawn."

I'm not sure if it was withdrawn but presumably it can't pass.

Manderleyagain · 07/05/2025 20:30

I wonder who it is in government that is scratching their heads, reading the sullivan review and the SC ruling and staring at various government databases in horror. I really hope they grab this issue with two hands.

confusedaboutparenting · 07/05/2025 20:34

LonginesPrime · 07/05/2025 18:06

Not sure whether it’s all done yet, but in any case, because the data bill is so incredibly sprawling now (writers’ rights around AI training, age of online consent, etc etc), the subjects were all interwoven as different members covered a few issues at a time, so my recommendation would be to wait until the Hansard transcript comes out at the end and then ctrl F it for “sex” to find the relevant bits. Then you can always go back and watch the bits you want at leisure.

Thats what I’m planning to do, anyway.

https://www.rutland-times.co.uk/national/mps-reject-bid-to-force-authorities-to-record-sex-data-on-biological-basis-145838/ Rejected

MPs reject bid to force authorities to record sex data on biological basis

Technology minister Sir Chris Bryant said this could create ‘legal confusion, uncertainty and inconsistency’.

https://www.rutland-times.co.uk/national/mps-reject-bid-to-force-authorities-to-record-sex-data-on-biological-basis-145838/

ScrollingLeaves · 07/05/2025 20:47

Manderleyagain · 07/05/2025 20:28

From hansard, Chris Bryant responded to this ammendment for the government. They won't pass it, but they at least seem tk take the issue of accurate data seriously and are still working out how to implement the sullivan review across departments.

"We are opposing the amendment and are not intending to introduce similar legislation.

As I said, data accuracy is important. That is equally true for any data used in a digital verification service. That is why the Government are already engaged in an appropriate and balanced range of work on data standards and data accuracy. We are already developing data standards on the monitoring of diversity information, including sex, via the Data Standards Authority. Following a review, the Office for Statistics Regulation published updated guidance on collecting and reporting data and statistics about sex and gender identity last year, and all Government Departments are now considering how best to address the recommendations of the Sullivan review, which we published. That is the first reason why we will not be supporting this new clause or the amendment today. Simply, we believe the concerns regarding the way in which public authorities process sex and gender data should be considered holistically, taking into account the effects of the Supreme Court ruling and the specific and particular requirements of public authorities. By contrast, the new clause and the amendment would undermine the work the Government are already doing. Giving the Secretary of State a new regulatory rule would undermine the existing processes that ensure compliance with the UK’s data protection.

Secondly, the new clause is misplaced because the Bill does not alter the evidence which can be relied upon to prove sex or gender. Indeed, it does not seek to alter any of the content of data used by digital verification services. Instead, the Bill enables people to do digitally what they can presently do physically, and it is for organisations to consider what specific information they need to verify in their particular circumstances. Any inconsistency between what they can do digitally and what they can do physically would obviously sow further division.

Thirdly, the new clause is unnecessary, because it is very unlikely that digital verification services would be used in many, if not all, of the cases specifically raised by or with hon. Members, such as within the NHS to gain access to single-sex wards or for screening or to enter other female-only spaces. We expect digital verification services to be used primarily to prove things such as one’s right to work, or one’s age, address or professional or educational qualifications, which are not matters where sex or gender is relevant at all.

Fourthly, the new clause goes significantly further than the findings of the Supreme Court. Finally, the proposals have the potential to interfere with the right to respect for private and family life under the Human Rights Act by requiring public authorities to record sex as biological sex in all cases regardless of whether it is justified or proportionate in that given circumstance. In addition, the amendment does not take account of the fact that the Gender Recognition Act 2004 gives those with gender recognition certificates a level of privacy and control over who has access to information about their gender history. As for amendment 39, it will create further uncertainty as it appears to prevent use of clause 45 in all cases involving sex.

As I have set out, while I understand the reason for tabling these amendments, I fear they would create legal confusion, uncertainty and inconsistency. I also note that they were not part of the previous Government’s version of this Bill, in which in nearly all respects this part of the Bill was identical to ours. Given the narrow scope of digital verification service measures, the need to consider this area holistically to ensure alignment with existing legislation, and upcoming EHRC guidance and the breadth of work already being carried out, I hope the new clause and amendments will be withdrawn."

I'm not sure if it was withdrawn but presumably it can't pass.

Thank you for that.
It will help to see what Sex Matters thinks of this response.

To me it looks like excuses for why not to accept the amendment and it looks like more tangled mess about to be made, but I am ignorant regarding all the details they mention.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 07/05/2025 20:59

Sir Chris continued: “While I understand the reason for tabling these amendments, I fear they would create legal confusion, uncertainty and inconsistency.” ( The Rutland Times article)…..

While, as examples of best practice, the police recording a crime of rape as having been committed by a ‘woman’; or girl guides being being lead by a ‘woman’; or someone entering an Olympic boxing match as a ‘woman’ - when in all these random example cases cases the said woman is male - will certainly provide certainty and lack of confusion for the public as well as ensuring the human rights and privacy of such ‘women’.

OP posts:
ProfessorFellatioHornblower · 07/05/2025 21:05

data should be considered holistically

Which leads to

the police recording a crime of rape as having been committed by a ‘woman’; or girl guides being being lead by a ‘woman’; or someone entering an Olympic boxing match as a ‘woman’ - when in all these random example cases cases the said woman is male

Holistically considering data. Now I've heard it all.

TheOtherRaven · 07/05/2025 22:12

I fear they would create legal confusion, uncertainty and inconsistency

And fictional data won't? And hasn't already? I don't think the rest of us live in that reality. It was 'identified' sex and GRCs that created all this mess in the first place.

I appreciated the woman MP saying that the SC judgment was being taken seriously and policy would be created in line with it, but how they're going to square that circle I have no idea.

Manderleyagain · 07/05/2025 22:37

"Finally, the proposals have the potential to interfere with the right to respect for private and family life under the Human Rights Act by requiring public authorities to record sex as biological sex in all cases regardless of whether it is justified or proportionate in that given circumstance."
I think this will be a difficult square to circle for those with a GRC.
Although it's duffucult to imagine a circumstance where an arm of the stare needs to record sex, but the target data doesn't need to be actual sex.

Peregrina · 07/05/2025 23:30

Thirdly, the new clause is unnecessary, because it is very unlikely that digital verification services would be used in many, if not all, of the cases specifically raised by or with hon. Members, such as within the NHS to gain access to single-sex wards or for screening or to enter other female-only spaces.

Statements like this were made when the GRC Act was passed in 2004. Norman Tebbit spoke out against it saying it would be abused by those minded to do so, and what he said has come to pass.

As for the Green Party spokesperson saying that it would lead to a mass "outing" of trans people, i.e. men - I have yet to see one who didn't look like a man in a frock.