What happens if orgs just make all their toilets and changing rooms mixed sex?

[TangenitalContrivance]

For example I saw this on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1kdp99q/toilet_door_at_work/

Or if they whole sale remove the mens sign and put up "Urinals and cubicles" and remove the women's sign and just put up "Cubicles"

We are not likely to see children who have been given blockers and hormones come to excel in sport: very sadly they're not likely to have a stellar sporting career ahead of them due to the medical complications. It will continue to be late transitioning men athletes.

I don't think this is the case - there are currently boys on hormones competing and winning in girls' sports at US high schools. Blaire Fleming is a volleyball player wreaking havoc on the US women's college volleyball circuit - I can't say specifically that he is medically/surgically transitioned but from his appearance it would appear so. His roommate also describes her shock and sense of betrayal at finding out he was a biological male, which also would suggest medical/surgical transition. There are others.

Some high-profile cases of puberty blocked boys feature individuals with serious health problems, but clearly not all suffer in this way.

Nike is allegedly funding a study of puberty-blocked boys to see how it affects their athletic performance. The study is definitely going on, but Nike aren't confirming or denying.
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/xx-xy-athletics-founder-jennifer-sey-slams-nike-over-its-alleged-funding-child-transgender-athletes-study
From the article:
The research is looking to discover how much medical intervention there needs to be for a male to "fairly" compete in girls’ and women’s sports.

Lastly, bear in mind that in the Ottoman Empire, eunuchs guarded harems. Since they were expected to repel men, they wouldn't have been given the job if they were weak and sickly.

Also I think women and girls who love sport have suffered enough and there is no reason why they should wait a bit longer while the general public catches up with the realisation that MCWs who want to compete as women do not want an Open category, I'm afraid. We've already got the example of World Aquatics.

I will boycott theatres that have only mixed sex provision

i was at a small music venue where the toilets were appalling dark mixed sex with cubicles at the back. Dangerous. I would not use and had to go back to my hotel room to use the loo

Another trendy venue had mixed loos. I would use. The men were apparently embarrassed and fed up queuing. I did not have a drink all evening as I would not use the loo and would avoid going to a gig there again.

I have complained if I find out mixed sex provision, point out the stats on sexual assault and ask if they have risk assessed/ informed their insurers. I told one restaurant I would have considered it for a works event but would not use as it would not be inclusive for Muslim and Orthodox clients

you have to keep pointing out that they will lose custom, risk liability and lose out on bar sales.

believe me once you have investigated this further and see the ferishes men have about mastrubating in women's loos, looking for used tampons in the sanitary bins or being aroused you will never want to use a mixed loo again; even if you think you are safe going in with friends.

and as for the idea that single cubicles with a washbasin inside are suitable google faecal spray and think of all the guys not washing their hands and touching the doors

Transwomen can compete in the male category, which can be the 'open' category. Ditto transmen.

Religious types - of both sexes - will not be able to use unisex facilities. Places where you have children and adults using the same facilities will be a worry too (I attend a university where schools have day visits from age 11 and you can’t have little girls merrily using the loos alongside adult males - it’s not right for either from an assault/accusation of assault point of view).

Does your uni only have unisex toilets?

Building regs says that there have to be separate women's and men's toilets, unless there is no space - a large public building like a university is unlikely not to have enough space, so it's likely they are obliged to have sex-segregated toilets.

They can add unisex ones if they wish, but a 'universal' toilet is something specific according to building regs, it's not a single-sex toilet with a new unisex badge slapped on, so they can't just re-label the women's or the men's as unisex.

So the situation you rightly criticise, where visiting children have to share toilets with adults of the opposite sex because there is no alternative, should not arise if building regs are being adhered to.

There are so many valid arguments against unisex-only provision, from safety to dignity to religion/culture, but I like the directness and clarity of quoting the law and building regs.

An optional extra argument is that there is already a tried-and-tested, long established arrangement of men's, women's and disabled toilets, which worked well until a very small number of men started demanding access to the women's toilets.

There has to be a better rationale for changing this established toilet provision - involving a lot of disruption and expense - than a tiny number of men feeling uncomfortable or claiming, without any evidence, to be in danger in the men's toilets...

That goes one of 2 ways.

No validation, so nobody plays. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/66993112

Or you give men double the categories - easy and hard, so they have twice as many chances and prizes as women. See the qualifying times for each category for the Boston marathon. https://www.baa.org/races/boston-marathon/qualify Think about why races are divided by sex. Then look at the 'non-binary' category winners - funnily enough, they are all the same type of non-binary.

If it’s like schools, the DfE specific design specification says this:
Drafting note continued:
In Secondary Schools:
• Whether the school requires single sex or unisex toilets.
• Whether hand-washing areas in toilets should be open on to the circulation space or enclosed by means of a door.
• Whether the school has a specific requirement (with justifiable reasons) to not have the standard floor to ceiling cubicle systems.
Generally:
• Any differentiation between toilet facilities for different age or gender groups?

So this is why some new school have ended up with all unisex loos (usually called gender neutral and promoted as such).

@MarieDeGournay college ones

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employers-requirements-for-college-projects-part-c

Thanks for this Keeptoiletssafe - does this mean than colleges etc. are allowed opt out of building regs re single sex toilet provisions??
That seems unlikely, but I suppose anything is possible!

Its happened in schools so I don’t see why not in colleges. Some new schools only have unisex cubicles. They are going to have to change. Be interesting who pays for it!

Well that's interesting! Building regs apply to public buildings but exclude educational establishments??

It’s interesting because building regs should be informed by Healthy and Safety legislation shouldn’t it?! I was quoted 1974 Health and Safety legislation by the DfE when I said their 2023 standard designs weren’t safe. They said schools should be regarding the 1974 regs too.

Its a mess.

Liability for foreseeable sexual assaults on women and girls which are much more likely in communal changing rooms/toilets.
Indirect and direct Sex discrimination legal action by women.
Fines etc for flouting Workplace Regs.
Bigger insurance premiums/refusal of insurance cover.

While I wish this would happen - it will take formidable people with deep packets to challenge these .... when we see the toll it takes on women to bring sex discrimination cases, even rape cases, with little chance of success..

Instead, I fear that women will continue to be ignored and silenced when they speak out, that organisations will not seek to push single sex provisions and that organisations will not defend women.

Three formidable women got support to take it to the Supreme Court. It’s thanks to them that single sex spaces are more likely to be in place now. We have something that can’t be ignored.

It was a David and Goliath fight for women to get it to this point, and brave women did it.

At least we're now able to all be honest that it's women's rights that are the issue and those wanting to overturn this judgement wish to remove women's rights in law.

Insurance companies and the EHRC enforcement powers (at least while Baroness Falkner is in charge) will do most of the heavy lifting.

But I’ve worked in places with only mixed loo facilities

If you mean single cubicles with shared washing facilities then yes, those are illegal.

They are used in schools all over the country, they are advertised on manufacturers websites and the Department of Education even list them on their school specific brief.

The DfE are contradicting themselves then. Unless we mean something different. Can you point me to the wording/diagrams?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65801b371c0c2a000d18ced6/SSB_SchoolSpecificBrief-A-C01.docx
It’s in here Page 49.

The Generic design advice and Annex 2A is here and neither mention single sex.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/employers-requirements-part-b-generic-design-brief
Section 2.3.20 p54 is the section in the generic brief. It does not mention single sex or safety. It does mention gender neutral and privacy.

If you look on manufacturers websites like bushboard, venesta, commercial washroom you can see loads of unisex school examples. They quote the Department of Education ‘regulations’. I do not blame the manufacturers, they are following the designs that they think are DfE compliant.

Here’s a couple of photos from actual schools (note how dangerous they are for anyone collapsed inside). There’s loads more like this.

@drspouse if you are really interested, here’s a nice brochure from Scotland from 6 years ago.
I like this one as it talks about safety gaps on p.4 (yeay!) but then sadly goes on about gender neutral and privacy and ignores the safety principles.
www.ads.org.uk/sites/default/files/2022-05/case-study-toilet-design-learning-environment-2019.pdf

I'm not completely sure about Scotland TBH.

It’s tricky working out what’s devolved and what legislation is applicable sometimes. The designs of these school toilets are similar across England, Scotland and Wales so the disadvantages are the same regardless of legislation.