Allow Male Workers to perform mammograms and breast screening

[CrakdEgg]

OK, so the Society & College of Radiographers have their annual delegates conference, where members bring forward motions for the union to lobby on.
In the past they have passed motions to 'remove gendered language' from health communications for inclusivity - you know, 'pregnant people' and the like. They then lobby behind the scenes to the Government to follow these requests.

This year we have this motion -

Allow Male Workers to Perform Mammograms

Workforce shortages: there are 15 posts for mammographers on NHS jobs. In the UK.

But are we bothered? Do we not want males in this space, or does it not matter because we have male gynaecologists? Or will it dissuade women from attending?

I am interested to hear other people's opinions. My instincts say 'no way Jose', but I am interested in keeping males out of female spaces, so I accept my bias.

Thoughts?

Not at all suspicious - that would suggest the motivation is in doubt. It is quite clear why this is being pushed.

As a breast cancer survivor I really wouldn’t mind. When I had biopsies taken just before diagnosis the ultrasound we we was male and one of the most genuine people I met who made me feel completely at ease. I’ve also had two male gynaes after possible womb cancer and they’ve also been amazing.

This thread has highlighted the reasons mammograms are performed by women, even though ultrasounds and biopsies can be performed by men.

The reasons remain, and staff shortages and men wanting career development dont negate them.

Its a dangerous precedence to set that because of x reasons safeguarding and womens health csn be compromised.

I'm not following the arguments about staffing issues. Google search says there's a general shortage of radiographers albeit mammography has a slightly higher percentage of vacant posts than average. Google search also says the shortage is due to increased demand for imaging across the board and problems with staff retention for reasons around training/CPD, career progression and lack of flexible working- the latter affecting mid or later career radiographers most acutely and I would guess disproportionately women. https://www.radiographyonline.com/article/S1078-8174(22)00158-4/fulltext
It doesn't seem immediately obvious why you solve the problems by moving male radiographers from elsewhere into mammography. There will just be more vacant posts elsewhere. Why wouldn't you fix the structural problems to retain more radiographers and more women.
Citing the staff shortage in mammography as the rationale, without the wider context of general shortages and retention problems, seems....troubling.

Of course it is isolating! It's the very few staff in these units that makes it isolating. One receptionist at the tiny desk to book you in and tell you what to do, one or two radiographers in the inner room. At my routine mammo last summer, in a unit parked behind the local cottage hospital, I had two female technicians which felt a little less intimidating than one, oddly. If it had been one man, and I'd asked for a female staff member, I doubt I'd have got one as the only other staff member was the receptionist and she would have left the unit unstaffed.

In a hospital clinic setting, you'll always be able to get a female chaperone because there are a lot more people around, simple as that. I've had fairly intrusive transvaginal scans done by men (mostly by men, frustratingly) and they have always said 'a woman will come in/do you want a female chaperone?' (I always thought they had to have one, legally. It's as much in their interests as in mine!) but this is easy to achieve in a hospital setting where there are multiple receptionists on duty just down the corridor!

This.

There are for more women radiographers trained than men, so if theres a staffing problem, it needs to be fixed at source, not fudged like this.

The fudge is working though isn't it.

Women are turning on those of us saying there are reasons for keeping screening single sex because we're blocking them from being seen in a timely way, we don't speak fir them, they shouldn't have a long wait for screening just because of our issues, which are totally misplaced because there will be "choice" (which we're the only ones in the way of).

Glad you've been lucky. Post-cancer my breasts are not only an 'odd" shape to get in position but mammograms are even more painful than they were before. I think I was just trying to point out that there's 3 categories of people with permitted access to your breasts (your breastfeeding children, your sexual partners and your mammographers) and you are in absolute control of the actions of the first two, but NOT of mammographers. I'd personally prefer this no-control situation to be female. Partly because a woman is more likely to know how it feels for the client (4th category, either sex, is HCPs if you're in a hospital clinic, where you simply have to rise above any qualms: you have to surrender most control and will also at some point be sitting in your gown next to someone else's husband!)

It doesn't stop you getting cancer, it can detect cancer.

It is very different to a male gynae.

And I'm not one to be bashful most of the time, I'm happy to let medical students do examinations, hell the last op I had I asked the student if she wanted to intubate.

But a male doing this, or training to - nope, get out of the room.

I don't know if the fact I've had my boobs grabbed by males makes a difference.

Its fustrating because people are confusing other procedures, diagnosis and waiting times with mammograms in screening.

The challenge of screening is to get women through the door. Its not women who have already being diagnosed, its woman who dont think they have cancer and are put off by the realities of the process.

As such, having time between screening on target, but having men perform the procedure will not lead to more uptake, it will be another reason not to attend. So fewer women will be diagnosed.

If the time between screening slips, but the number of women attending remains the same or increases, more women will be diagnosed. Even if the diagnosis is weeks later than it could be.

Having men perform the mammogram will not lead to more women being diagnosed. Radiographers know this.

I would have said the same thing until I had a male consultant who acted inappropriately during a breast exam.

To my mind, this is very much a similar situation to allowing TW into the women's loos. Just because some don't mind, doesn't mean they all do. I do believe women should have the choice, maybe that's the compromise?

Women mammographers only for women is the most efficient solution.

(Virtually) all women will accept a female to do their mammogram so if more are trained, take up of screening offers among women will be higher. If there is a chance of getting a male HCP, take up will not go and might go down.

Chaperones will not be needed.

Male mammographers can do men, if required.

I agree. I think until it's happened to you, you really don't know how you'll feel. I had no idea how much manipulation there would be of my boobs, arms and torso before I had the mammogram - I thought you just put your breast on the plate and the plates would squeeze down on them a bit before the image was taken. How wrong I was.

If women were offered the choice of a male or female and there was absolutely no detriment to women who select a female mammographer, or risk to those who select a male then I can see that might be a reasonable offer - but we all know what would happen in reality.

One thing I will say is that breast screenings do cause undue worry and often false positives. I know my health trust are looking at other ways to make screening, not to mention take-up more effective.

It's worth noting that for those with dense breasts, many masses don't show up anyway as the dense tissue is white, as is the mass. I know in my case, not a single one of my dozen lumps (over my life) ever showed on a mammogram. Some didn't even show on the ultrasound either. From the age of 15 right up until my 40s when I diagnosed with breast cancer), every single time I self-referred with a lump. Checking one's breasts oneself is still the single most effective way to look after one's breasts.

What breast clinics are thinking about is targeting those with family histories of breast cancer, doing blood tests, and other screening. They're also looking at offering earlier routine US screening for those with dense breasts. Ultimately, I know they want to increase take-up. I feel strongly that introducing male clinicians conducting mammograms could make things worse. I know it will at my health trust which includes a large number of orthodox Jews, one in forty of whom will carry either a mutation on BCRA 1 and/or BCRA 2, often unknowingly.

And that's another thing, for those with genetic mutations such as BCRA 1, BCRA 2, PALB2 and other breast cancer specific genes, they have annual MRIs anyway, thus freeing up space for others to have routine mammograms.

Had mine done by a male during covid, absolutely brutal. Made several complaints found another woman who had also experienced it. Several scans done by different males all ok, but I asked for chaperone. Eventually one of them actually asked my reasons for wanting ,ideally a female, and actually listened. But was told when I officially complained that that professionals were always employed and that it couldn’t have happened.

To my mind, this is very much a similar situation to allowing TW into the women's loos. Just because some don't mind, doesn't mean they all do. I do believe women should have the choice, maybe that's the compromise?

Do any of the women who are happy for men to do this object to a woman carrying out the mammography? If not then choice is not necessary - a women only environment is fine for those who are happy with men too and doesn’t put off women who would only attend if they felt sure of a women only environment - environment not just technician.

This is it.

Why are they focusing on males doing mammograms rather than asking some serious questions about alternative ways to do the same job, more effectively, since we now have the means to do this?

Is it because - this might be more expensive - and women aren't actually valued.

And theres this mentality that this is the way we've always done it, so why bother to change. Women will just have to put up with it.

There's absoluetely no thought process going on here.

Are you paranoid? People are allowed a different view to you!

apparently screening uptake is only 40% of invited women (think i saw this quoted on this thread) so I don't think that's virtually all women?

It wouldn't bother me.
I think a lot of people are being a bit precious about it.
My dh has his prostate checks often done by women.
As long as they behave in a professional manner it's no biggie. Certainly better than not having cancer detected.

Its unlikely that the 60% not attending are being put off because the mammogram will be carried out by a woman rather than a man

no but 40% of those who are entitiled to a mammogram is not "virtually all women"

You don’t get to make that choice for other women.

PP didn't say that virtually all women attend for mammograms she said that virtually all women would accept a women performing them.

How many women who aren't having mammograms do you think would be more likely to have them if they knew that it may be a man performing them?

Nope. I am not.

Speaking of different views to yourself....

not my point. The stats indicate that virtually all women don't accept a mammogram intvitation regardless of who they think will do it.