Men in female only spaces

[Alucard55]

There's been a lot of discussion this past week around women's toilets and how we keep men out and police that. In an ideal world men would just stay out but that's looking increasingly unlikely. Every day there are men on mainstream media saying they are terrified in one breath then the next saying they will continue to use womens toilets. I've been following the other threads and am starting to feel like we are going round in circles (no disrespect to anyone fighting for the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls).

I'd instead like to start a conversation about how this ruling will work in practical terms in places such as womens rape crisis centres, womens refuges, womens prisons etc. Basically places where entry is policed. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that a space or service where Identity is required can now legally say "no you cannot come in here this is a space for women only".

I hate to say this but could it be the case that while in reality we can't keep all men out of women's toilets, we can now be confident that men will not be allowed entry into the spaces where women are most vulnerable and scared?

We’re going to need to keep bringing the court cases wherever people are failing to reorganise in line with the law. It’s a culture change.

Lots of them will move themselves into line- Pool has, the government seems to have, EHRC has, school toilets are underway in Scotland.

When the schools and sport are sorted, that will have a significant impact elsewhere imo.

Many places want to do this but have felt obliged not to. They will shift quickly. Some places will be reluctant because of an embedded and unrecognised misogyny. They will need court cases. 🤷🏼‍♀️

I think a large part will be that many men will think twice about the ladies whereas before the message being pushed was that they were entirely welcome.

We should stop seeing those signs that told women not to question anyone, that suggested that gender ID was the basis for choice for facilities.

And we should be able to say something to a man in the ladies without fear of being called out for it, not supported by the owners of the building, that sort of thing.

Most men know they beat up most women easily. Women have zero chance of physically keeping men out of any space.

It is the ultimate intimidation. All women have is the law and the grace of good men to uphold it.

This is why the laws and rulings are important.

In theory, men are out of rape centres. In practice, get ready to call the police a lot. And hope they do their jobs.

The more it gets back in place the more people will shout it out “hoy mate- wrong one”

the more the police can be called ,

then the less it happens

I think one place this will work best will be sports as it could be more easily enforced than places like toilets.

Those signs at universities telling women not to question any men in the women's toilets are illegal and should be removed for starters.

I think they will continue to use womans toilets, knowing that they won't be challenged as

A) most people are not very observant
B) many believe in "be kind"
C) often toilets are either empty or that busy they won't be noticed.

A few people will notice and care, and some will challenge... same as before really.

Well, if Im in a hospital and need to have an intimate exam with a male doctor, there is usually a female chaperone. With a female doctor there isnt usually a chaperone. Now I can ask for a chaperone with a trans doctor for example and not feel worried that the level of care I receive might suffer because Im being difficult. Heaven forbid a woman is difficult.

i personally do not care if someone female passing uses the same toilets as me. It has happened many times before and no big deal. Even when they go quiet for just a bit too long and you wonder if theyre listening to you or just trying to be quiet about their business… however I do care about the most vulnerable women, who would be scared to share a bathroom with a person with a penis, for reasons of experience of sexual assault, or religious restrictions or just feeling intimidated, whether that feeling is justified or not. If there is even one vulnerable woman who needs a penis free space, then that is what the provision should be. Although trans people are more vulnerable than the general population, in this scenario the woman is more vulnerable and need priority to hold a space that was created to be separate from the male provision for her safety and wellbeing.

in a ideal world we would have three toilet/ changing options- female, male and unisex..

and hopefully the man who hangs around the ladies toilet in the local park (all the mums know at the playground not to send their kids to the toilets alone) who I am sure is not trans but has definitely told me he can use any toilet he likes, will now feel less brazen.

I hate how this has shown me how little women matter and how much men and women seem to hate women and hate women saying what about me.

My concern is that they will remove those signs, and the Women/Men signs, and replace them all with Unisex signs.

This. ^^

There'll be a while of kicking off and then it'll settle down and third spaces will start appearing.

We've gone in a mere week from 'no third spaces evah!' to 'our third spaces will be the party space'.

And we stickered.

Did us no good really, and people got arrested. And we were acting within the law.

It's also going to be the case that the more antisocial and anti women behaviour exhibited, the more the majority population will get really sick of all this. The comments in the newspapers aren't supportive.

I agree with this.

Court cases. Lots and lots and lots of court cases.

We just keep going to court.

Until rape crisis organisations accept that female rape survivors deserve help and support which is not conditional on pretending to believe that a man is a woman.

Until employers accept that failing to provide appropriate single sex toilets and changing facilities for their staff and enforcing the single sex nature of those facilities is not going to fly.

Until women have stopped being discriminated against for saying that 2+2=4.

Until theatres have been told that renaming their toilets "cubicles" and "cubicles and urinals" is indirect discrimination against women.

Until there are no longer any male prisoners in the female prison estate or male patients on female only wards.

In reality I think there will be more mixed sex toilet facilities in places where usage can't be effectively policed. But if the "trans women shouldn't be in women's toilets" message gets through at a societal level, I think that organisations which are in a position to provide additional mixed sex facilities alongside single sex ones will find that all but the most obnoxious trans people use them.

There's a lot of bravado at the moment about how some men intend to continue to trample on women's rights but in practice I think many would be too cowardly now that women know they can complain. All we need to do is make sure that we do complain when/if necessary.

We should probably think of it like speed limits.

Just as you can't prevent every instance of speeding, realistically you're not going to be able to prevent every single trans woman from using a toilet everywhere. But the law is there - and it should at least discourage the exhibitionists.

I'm alert to the dangers of creating martyrs - making a public complaint about an elderly and appropriately dressed transwoman in a busy railway station might not actually be all that helpful. There's nothing wrong in making a judgement call on the actual circumstances around you.

Is there a specific law about men or transgender women entering the toilets marked women?

They can't. I've just received a information pack on toilets from Let Women Speak. Hope link works.

https://letwomenspeak.org/so/46PPdPkh0?languageTag=en&cid=81f274da-58e8-4ef6-92b9-9b43d9210b6a

Interesting question. At the moment they could be charged with breach of the peace at the least. I wonder what else?

Perhaps government will bring in a new law? Perhaps we will have to fight for one.

Sorry Jelly, misread your post here as signs being forcibly removed and not the organisation just unisexing everything.

This seems to only apply to employees, not customers.

How is it a breach of the peace?

No, it's not illegal and never has been but as far as I am aware it does depend where the toilets are and why the man is there.

If they are in the workplace, employers have to provide single sex provision and can enforce that through their workplace policies.

If they are in private facilities with public access, such as a theatre or gym, the owners of the facility can choose whether or not to allow men into female only toilets but if they do they must not be labelled as 'women's' because they would be mixed sex.

If they are public toilets men can enter the those marked 'women' and it's not an offence unless they do actually commit (or intend to commit) an offence in there. However, it is socially unacceptable.

We vote with our feet.

Just like I've not set foot in M&S (not even for my traditional Christmas treat shop) since they admitted to having mixed changing rooms etc.

If a facility says it has single sex provisions, but doesn't enforce that, we complain, then we leave and make sure everyone knows that's the case that they are breaking the law by lying about their facilities.

It would reasonably lead to women in the toilets fearing harm.

The ruling has been made. Unfortunately though WE have to enforce it. If I'm faced by a man in a wospace I'll think about telling him to ---- himself, but this is where safety in numbers comes in: if there are 2 or more of us, then out he will go!!
Seriously I don't think many men will risk breaking the law by looking like perverts.

It's the beginning of another culture shift. It used to be that men didn't feel like they could just go into women's spaces without consequence, then they found a loophole, now we're shifting back to when they couldnt get away with it easily.
As others have said, there are going to be more court cases, more clashes, more pushing back on both sides but the tide has turned hard towards women.
It's a long way from settled but we are gaining momentum. The lunacy was never going to be sustainable, not the moment it burst into general public awareness.