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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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20
Talkinpeace · 27/04/2025 12:19

For those saying
"there needs to be a court case"
There just was.

For Women Scotland took the Scottish Government to court
and won

LlynTegid · 27/04/2025 12:29

Opening the mixed ponds in winter would not just ensure that the Ladies Pond is biological women only, for anyone part of a couple there would be the option to swim year round together.

NotDarkGothicMama · 27/04/2025 12:40

Anyone up for a swim? 😉

BeLemonNow · 27/04/2025 13:12

CurrentHun · 27/04/2025 07:16

Excellent second letter.

Not legal here and sorry this will be long, but while hoping I’m wrong on this- I predict this will take a legal case to sort out.

From what I read here: there’s KPLA, a captured volunteer user group with no decision making power but who are a mouthpiece for mixed sex swimming in the Ladies Pond. plus the Corporation of London which is powerful and legally decisive- and also captured.

The Corporation of London could make all three ponds mixed which would be perfectly legal and fit with their politics thus far. Note the reported quote saying; ‘ oh staff say it’s all fine and it’s actually been mixed sex for years in the Ladies’ Pond ’ I’d say that’s been very tactically given.

So to secure public facilities as single sex (or create any new single sex spaces) needs a big iconic legal case. Why should any service providers otherwise keep or create anything as single sex, when they will get blasted for doing so by extreme trans activists and everyday misogynists? Not to mention putting women and families off from their facilities entirely if they fear that protestors will start being there doing piss protests and whatever.

Seems like the next thing to fight is stopping public spaces becoming mixed sex or gender neutral only. Stopping the Supreme Court decision being used against us. Opposing mixed sex can not rely on showing that an existing service has been single sex for years. That will be undercut by opponents saying yeah yeah it was mixed sex for years with no problem. You just didn’t realise etc.

GC women and men need to articulate the case that unisex individual spaces and communal mixed sex spaces are both a risk and a cultural disbenefit to women in a way that single sex communal spaces are not. Because of the sexist culture of the UK.

Single sex communal spaces offer advantages and freedoms to women of association with each other because of the absence of men that single individual provision or missed sex communal provision does not. That goes for anything from swimming pools and toilets, to schools I would say.

All women need this option but also especially for example lesbians, whose right to meet without men has been suppressed for decades, plus women with any kind of vulnerability or additional need, including cultural or religious need, neurodiversity or traumatic life history. Any worman who just wants a space away from mainstream culture which includes men, in which to relax. You don’t have to have any specific’ ‘reason’ for that. That should be enough reason in itself. But loads of people will absolutely violently hate that idea.

That simple argument which advocates for benefits for women of talking freely to each other without men, will be read as extremely threatening by some men and women. Just watch. There are men that hate women talking on Mumsnet for example. Massive red flag but we know those type of men are easily found, and in all walks of life. So we need to make the argument for single sex spaces as a unique and essential benefit to women louder and louder right now.
And, that will mean supporting and creating some men-only spaces too. Which involves its own complexities for women. It’s not straightforward because of sexism being so pervasive.

So I do think this issue will need a court case to scare service providers with financial losses if they simply obliterate female single sex provision. That is an unacceptable response to the Supreme Court’s excellent decision. I hope some brave female and male swimmers will take on the court case here because with the iconic history of these Ponds it could be the precedent. Misogyny never goes away, it just takes on new forms.

Yes, exactly. Here my argument. It's more generally agreed that women with a history of abuse should be able to access single sex rape and therapy as the presence of a male body is allowed to be considered threatening. That usually gets used as an example.

But once you've allowed that these women have these medical needs what about their social needs? And need for exercise. These needs are also better met by having single sex spaces and groups as an option. This isn't a tiny number. 1 in 4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted as an adult (ONS). Some will be very isolated especially if leaving domestic violence.

Women are also much less likely to meet NHS exercise targets than men and so there's a legitimate need for services that encourage womens exercise and sport. That also might include things like childcare and subsidies.

R.e. pools over the winter the obvious answer, which probably won't happen, is to have a women's pool and a mixed pool. Although in the world of pool cue sports that is now happening...

Cassthehotwaterbottle · 27/04/2025 13:27

BeLemonNow · 27/04/2025 13:12

Yes, exactly. Here my argument. It's more generally agreed that women with a history of abuse should be able to access single sex rape and therapy as the presence of a male body is allowed to be considered threatening. That usually gets used as an example.

But once you've allowed that these women have these medical needs what about their social needs? And need for exercise. These needs are also better met by having single sex spaces and groups as an option. This isn't a tiny number. 1 in 4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted as an adult (ONS). Some will be very isolated especially if leaving domestic violence.

Women are also much less likely to meet NHS exercise targets than men and so there's a legitimate need for services that encourage womens exercise and sport. That also might include things like childcare and subsidies.

R.e. pools over the winter the obvious answer, which probably won't happen, is to have a women's pool and a mixed pool. Although in the world of pool cue sports that is now happening...

I work in mental health and it's common for female patients where I work to use the Ladies' Pond as therapy. I and others refer them there, informally, as it has had such immense benefits for the women we work with. It wouldn't be possible if it were mixed sex, as these are survivors of abuse or crime and often struggle to find places that feel safe for them.

TheOtherRaven · 27/04/2025 14:02

BeLemonNow · 27/04/2025 13:12

Yes, exactly. Here my argument. It's more generally agreed that women with a history of abuse should be able to access single sex rape and therapy as the presence of a male body is allowed to be considered threatening. That usually gets used as an example.

But once you've allowed that these women have these medical needs what about their social needs? And need for exercise. These needs are also better met by having single sex spaces and groups as an option. This isn't a tiny number. 1 in 4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted as an adult (ONS). Some will be very isolated especially if leaving domestic violence.

Women are also much less likely to meet NHS exercise targets than men and so there's a legitimate need for services that encourage womens exercise and sport. That also might include things like childcare and subsidies.

R.e. pools over the winter the obvious answer, which probably won't happen, is to have a women's pool and a mixed pool. Although in the world of pool cue sports that is now happening...

I once sat in a long and tedious meeting where council personel looked at the low usage statistics for various sections of the population - particularly women and minority groups of women - for their gym and leisure resources alongside the targets to improve health needs also highly identified in that group.

And women only swims and sessions were a part of what was created to try and help this.

And then came along the next big shiny of the most important women being the male ones, and of course all the women who needed that support were pushed out.

Any minute now there'll be another (expensive when you add up all the wages of those paid to sit there and give time to this) meeting where people discuss gosh, where have all the women gone and how do we help those women to access these parts of society and gain the benefits that - oh look, men seem to have no trouble getting.

LlynTegid · 27/04/2025 15:35

@Cassthehotwaterbottle read about the impact of 'wild swimming' on mental health, and I am not surprised. Social prescribing is important, same for the use of saunas.

MrsSkylerWhite · 27/04/2025 15:43

NestOfWipers · 24/04/2025 22:36

Why are the men so bothered about having a single sex pool?

Why shouldn’t they be?

spannasaurus · 27/04/2025 15:46

Amy from Man Friday spoke at LWS today. She's arranging an event at the ponds on bank holiday Monday

NestOfWipers · 27/04/2025 23:04

MrsSkylerWhite · 27/04/2025 15:43

Why shouldn’t they be?

Because men are not threatened by a female in the same physical way a female is threatened by a male.

Obviously

BeLemonNow · 27/04/2025 23:29

Cassthehotwaterbottle · 27/04/2025 13:27

I work in mental health and it's common for female patients where I work to use the Ladies' Pond as therapy. I and others refer them there, informally, as it has had such immense benefits for the women we work with. It wouldn't be possible if it were mixed sex, as these are survivors of abuse or crime and often struggle to find places that feel safe for them.

The Ladies Pond is currently mixed sex. Or to put it another way, how do you expect one of your female patients would feel if they were alone in a changing facility with someone who clearly had a penis? And when they went to query it were told "maybe they were transgender". It might not have happened to anyone you know yet but it will, with increasing numbers of transgender people.

KnottyAuty · 28/04/2025 00:01

Is there an address or email to send letters to please?

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 28/04/2025 08:12

NestOfWipers · 24/04/2025 22:36

Why are the men so bothered about having a single sex pool?

Have you read Alan Hollinghurst's novel "The Line of Beauty"? I don't think the TV adaptation used the Hampstead men's pond scene but that scene is a hint 😆

NestOfWipers · 28/04/2025 08:15

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 28/04/2025 08:12

Have you read Alan Hollinghurst's novel "The Line of Beauty"? I don't think the TV adaptation used the Hampstead men's pond scene but that scene is a hint 😆

No I haven't.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 28/04/2025 08:25

NestOfWipers · 28/04/2025 08:15

No I haven't.

Then you've missed a treat. A young gay man enjoying the high life in Thatcher's London. I wont spoiler it any further!

user101101 · 28/04/2025 08:28

maltravers · 23/04/2025 20:13

Muslim and Jewish women don’t seem to elicit the same sympathy as TW. CoL don’t have that sort of “inclusion” in mind it seems.

The "anti-racists" are actually quite racist.

1apenny2apenny · 28/04/2025 09:10

I said a long time ago that it will get to the point where women just need to start using the men’s facilities. The Man Friday event was great but I do think it needs to be women just turning up and going in the men’s and seeing if they are questioned and recording the whole thing if they are. It needs to be consistent not a one off. Unfortunately I don’t live in London but I would do this if I did (easy to say I know).

I’m not convinced court cases is the answer, I think just quietly pushing organisations is a better approach.

Davros · 28/04/2025 09:49

KnottyAuty · 28/04/2025 00:01

Is there an address or email to send letters to please?

Those letters I posted above are from The Camden New Journal. If you want to send a letter to them it is [email protected] by midday on Tuesday for publishing that Thursday. Supply name, address and phone number. Presumably you can ask for your contact details not to be printed. The other local paper is The Ham&High which I no longer read as it got very cut and paste with other national local papers.
i am thinking of sending a letter but I expect they will receive a good few. Let’s compare notes after the paper comes out this week

AnnaFrith · 28/04/2025 10:10

IANAL but I'd have thought if trans identifying men are not now excluded from the Ladies' Pond this would be a barn door case for either direct sex discrimination (if the Men's Pond remains single sex) or indirect sex discrimination (if they make all three ponds mixed sex).

I fully expect lots of organisations will refuse to comply with the law as it now stands, and that we will need to crowdfund a few legal cases before they concede that they can't continue to ignore women's rights.

MrsSkylerWhite · 28/04/2025 10:15

NestOfWipers · 27/04/2025 23:04

Because men are not threatened by a female in the same physical way a female is threatened by a male.

Obviously

Surely equality means everyone is entitled to the same consideration?

There are lots of reasons why women want women only spaces, not all because of safety and security considerations. By the same token, many men also appreciate male only spaces. Each are perfectly reasonable wants.

Rightsraptor · 28/04/2025 10:17

I'm not saying you're wrong @AnnaFrith but why should we have to crowdfund yet more cases when the law is now settled? Yes, we will need to see offenders prosecuted before the message starts to sink in but, really - are we going to have to put our hands in our pockets again?

AnnaFrith · 28/04/2025 10:29

Maybe we won't have to - I hadn't realised the EHRC has enforcement powers:

Our enforcement powers | EHRC

NestOfWipers · 28/04/2025 10:45

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 28/04/2025 08:25

Then you've missed a treat. A young gay man enjoying the high life in Thatcher's London. I wont spoiler it any further!

🤣🤣 ok

user101101 · 28/04/2025 10:52

1apenny2apenny · 28/04/2025 09:10

I said a long time ago that it will get to the point where women just need to start using the men’s facilities. The Man Friday event was great but I do think it needs to be women just turning up and going in the men’s and seeing if they are questioned and recording the whole thing if they are. It needs to be consistent not a one off. Unfortunately I don’t live in London but I would do this if I did (easy to say I know).

I’m not convinced court cases is the answer, I think just quietly pushing organisations is a better approach.

The problem is women take a physical risk doing this. Most women do a runner if they see a man in the toilets, so going against their instincts going to the men's.

Maybe next time there's one of those open plan ones with urinals, I'll casually stand by the door, looking around 😂

You don't need to be in London!

KnottyAuty · 28/04/2025 12:00

Davros · 28/04/2025 09:49

Those letters I posted above are from The Camden New Journal. If you want to send a letter to them it is [email protected] by midday on Tuesday for publishing that Thursday. Supply name, address and phone number. Presumably you can ask for your contact details not to be printed. The other local paper is The Ham&High which I no longer read as it got very cut and paste with other national local papers.
i am thinking of sending a letter but I expect they will receive a good few. Let’s compare notes after the paper comes out this week

I meant to the Corporation of London as they will oversee the operation of the pond via the managing committee. So if the committee break the bylaws they will have to step in. Anyone got a specific email address please?