Definition of "woman" / implications for people with DSDs

[proximalhumerous]

Two points, but I didn't want to start two threads as there are already several.

Am I being stupid / obtuse / disingenuous / unreasonable to wonder how the recent judgment could possibly have gone any other way in a sane society? I mean how can the definition of "x" be something that started off as "y" and changed artificially (as opposed to organically) to become "x"? That would be totally illogical, surely?

Additionally, can anyone point me towards any credible sources to explain how this ruling is likely to affect people with DSDs? Understandably, a lot of self-described* intersex people believe that sex is a spectrum, but given the SC disagrees with this, what are the implications?

*When I say self-described I mean that they use this term rather than "DSD" to describe themselves, not that they merely identify as intersex without any medical diagnosis.

I think it has recently been discovered that a faulty SRY gene is one of three (?) reasons that can lead to Swyer's. It's about 1 in 80,000.

I understand. You've not missed anything in the Act but TRAs have tried to use DSDs as some kind of justification for sex not being binary for a long time. I would suspect that TRAs are suggesting that the act means that people with DSDs are now not going to be allowed into females spaces if they have a Y chromosome even if they are female.

Along similar lines to women are going to get strip searched by male police officers who mistake them for transwomen

That's interesting - can you say anything about whether you have reason to believe they actually have DSDs? Or is it possible that some/most/all of them are self-identifying as intersex?

I just wanted to properly understand the difference between a karyotype test and a genetic test.

I agree it's a stupid argument, but I was told off the other day for describing a DSD as an anomaly as that was "medicalising and reductive", apparently. I mean it's pretty much a textbook example of a medical anomaly that someone can have XY chromosomes and present as unambiguously female, but there you go.

I only have their word(s) for it, but several of them have made their whole identity and career out of being intersex, so it would be a pretty big fib if it isn't true. It's just frustrating that so many of the more vocal ones who are steering the group are TRAs - it's become more of a trans rights group than an intersex one imo.

Ive read part of the Michael Foran article explaining the Supreme Court decision and there was mention of legal cases about where the sex of a person with a DSD was disputed. I can't remember any of the details but I think quite old so possibly before the genetic testing that is used now.

I can't imagine a case where someone with a DSD diagnosis from a recognised qualified doctor would have to prove their sex was something other than their doctor had determined. Particularly for a sex specific DSD

Well which toilets do those with DSDs use just now? I'm not sure what relevance they or you think this has to them? Are they using toilets opposite to their sex recorded at birth?

It wont affect them, unless they identify as trans and have a GRC

I think some of them are, yes. And some look quite ambiguous physically/facially.

People with DSDs do not have two sets of genitals! That is a very old fantasy (going back to the greeks - remember Tiresias?), translated into trans-identified porn in the modern world.

As other posters have said, people with DSDs very often have quite extensive medical examinations, screening etc. They know their sex.

Cases such as Caster Semenya and the Algerian boxer point to other issues, not that "intersex" people are both sexes on a spectrum.

They were born into less developed countries with less medical expertise available more generally for all but the rich.

They are also born into cultures/countries where girls are far less valued than boys. So male babies who don't immediately appear male, or are less strong, tall etc, will be related to the lesser status of female. There was quite a lot of really thoughtful and knowledgeable journalism about this at the time of the last Olympics - I'm summarising it rather crudely here.

Some people think that PCOS is an intersex condition so some of those self described intersex people may just be women with PCOS

One has hypospadias which, as I understand it, barely qualifies as intersex, although I guess it is still a difference of sexual development.

I was going to say this. I know a couple of TRAs who claim sex is complicated, and that they personally are "intersex". They aren't. They are women with PCOS. As am I, and I actually find it really fucking insulting that they think that makes us "less" of a woman.

Thank you @BelfastBard and @proximalhumerous. Trying to navigate a path between a young person who is very hot on this issue and a very elderly medic! Need to be on firm scientific ground for either of them to take me seriously.

Totally understandable that you'd feel that way.

I do find the TRA rhetoric quite manipulative and find myself wondering whether I'm being unkind, until reading/listening to people with some sense, education and logic reminds me that the idea of sex being a spectrum is largely nonsense.

Genetic testing looks at genes. So I am not sure why you just reference Chromosomes? It is the difference between telling someone who wants a recipe what the ingredients and instructions are (genes) or just telling them the recipe book is blue (chromosomes)

You're welcome. It's a bit scary when you have to advocate for yourself or a family member and you're not an expert. I only have GCSE biology, but I can't abide illogical thought which a lot of the trans rhetoric is, imo.

If there had been a medical error and sex has been misidentified at birth, there is a process for getting the register corrected.

That is not the same as applying for a GRC.

UK law only recognises male and female, but that was established before the Supreme Court judgement.

I'm referencing chromosomes simply because I referred to a karyotype test (rather than genotype test) earlier in the thread and am trying to get all my facts straight from a starting point of GCSE biology 35 years ago. In other words if I ask questions my aim is to clarify my understanding of the science, not to disagree with more knowledgeable posters.

*A karyotype test is what I had when I was diagnosed (roughly at the same time I took GCSE biology).

People with DSDs have a legal sex. This ruling just means your legal sex is your sex and a GRC doesn’t change it. Doesn’t affect people with DSDs unless they are also trans and have a GRC.

People with DSDs do not have two sets of genitals! That is a very old fantasy (going back to the greeks - remember Tiresias?), translated into trans-identified porn in the modern world.

There is a trend with some porn-soaked transideologists to have surgery to create a ‘neovagina’ and hang onto their penis. I guess those men would thereafter probably refer to themselves as intersex.

I also struggle with trans / TRA logic (or lack of it) as I have worked in evidenced-based technical fields all my life. Hence my desire to be able to put forward some facts!

Also, it’s more or less definitional that a DSD affects fertility or has the potential to affect fertility in some individuals in order to be considered a difference or disorder of sexual development. Differences of e.g. organ appearance which don’t affect fertility are thought of as within the ‘normal’ range of variability and don’t attract medical attention. So it’s not unreasonable of you to see a DSD as a medical issue. Women with Turners, for example, may nowadays be able to carry pregnancies, but the condition means they need medical support to do so. If the condition didn’t affect their fertility, it wouldn’t be a DSD.

Eurgh.

Well I just relayed the information to the intersex group about World Athletics having recently approved a test to determine whether an athlete is biologically female by testing the SRY gene, and was told that wouldn't work because reasons and who are the idiots advising WA, etc., etc.

That's the mindset of these people - they are utterly determined that the world is against them and nobody can possibly know anything if they don't have "lived experience".