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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trevor Philips in the Times

64 replies

Igneococcus · 21/04/2025 06:47

I will put this into the other threads that collect links to newspaper articles as well but I thought this comment by Sir Trevor Phillips, the first chairman of the EHRC, deserves its own thread:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/4039df92-15a2-48e8-a73f-aca8dad25d0b?shareToken=fac9197f0581a79518d1234d5ae195e5

Trans row epitomised Looking Glass lunacy

The dangers of our leaders allowing themselves to be gaslit into declaring black is white and white is black are not over

https://www.thetimes.com/article/4039df92-15a2-48e8-a73f-aca8dad25d0b?shareToken=fac9197f0581a79518d1234d5ae195e5

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
woollyhatter · 21/04/2025 08:51

Igneococcus · 21/04/2025 08:19

There are of course people in the comments telling him off for some mistakes in the Latin :)

I did laugh as the Latin did make me stop half way through a balanced and excellent article to parse it and correct it in my head.

I think his White Queen analogy was superb.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 21/04/2025 08:56

They haven't finished yet. The Telegraph reports WhatsApp messages between leading Labour politicians threatening to amend the provisions about trans people with Parliamentary legislation.

JasmineAllen · 21/04/2025 08:56

BundleBoogie · 21/04/2025 08:37

An excellent article thank you for sharing. This is the key paragraph for me:
For the first time in the world, the 2010 act made gender reassignment ground for discrimination in a similar fashion to race and sex. Had anyone believed that “trans women are women” there would have been no need for such a provision.

So apparently Harriet Harman has been claiming that the EA always intended that ‘TWAW’ but this makes it clear that she’s a liar. A liar actively working against the interests of women. Again. I have thoughts about women like her.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall that Harriet Harman also supported PIE back in the day so she definitely has form for working against women and children.

BundleBoogie · 21/04/2025 09:00

JasmineAllen · 21/04/2025 08:56

Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall that Harriet Harman also supported PIE back in the day so she definitely has form for working against women and children.

Sadly you are 100% right. How she has maintained her senior positions I don’t know - obviously there’s political capital in throwing women and children under the bus. She’s a nasty piece of work.

JasmineAllen · 21/04/2025 09:06

BundleBoogie · 21/04/2025 09:00

Sadly you are 100% right. How she has maintained her senior positions I don’t know - obviously there’s political capital in throwing women and children under the bus. She’s a nasty piece of work.

I agree. I used to like her until I read about her PIE support. How anyone who supported them could ever work in politics again is beyond me.

They didn't even try and hide the fact they were/are paedophiles. How on earth can any decent person support that FFS !!!!

Datun · 21/04/2025 09:09

Igneococcus · 21/04/2025 08:00

And he also says that he think the TRAs have been deliberately deceitful.
I think this is really important. I hope someone in the comments will mention the Denton report.

Same.

Women have uncovered the originators of the deception, including Stephen Whittle, who has practically admitted it.

Deliberating force teaming with gay rights, strategic litigation, aiming for things like prisons, because 'everything else will fall into place', feverishly implementing no debate, because otherwise people 'won't accept it.'

And all on behalf of men pissing up statues in London and sending women death threats.

The Times, Telegraph and Mail have all been at the vanguard of reporting about this. If any of them ever read these threads look up Dentons. Because as yet, the cat isn't even out of the bag.

RethinkingLife · 21/04/2025 09:19

Archive of Massie’s Bag Ladies article above

archive.ph/DH72K

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2025 09:36

It's worth stressing that Philips has previously talked about racism and how drives to be more inclusive have actively been classist and particularly adversely affected white working class boys. His comment was that this was particularly true of the media and has been a contributing factor in a lack of understanding of the Brexit vote and a rising mistrust in the media and various public institutions. It's an observation that is also reflected in the grooming gangs debate (another subject that just won't die and is fuelling Reform).

Philips intervention is a significant one from this respect too. Hes labour. He's respected. (I've heard comment that Starmer needs Blair to do a speech before he can commit to a position - Phillips is probably the next best thing).

He is likely to be listened to by many moderates within Labour.

Don't underestimate this article.

PaterPower · 21/04/2025 09:40

I don’t recall him saying much of this before the SC ruling (I’m happy to be corrected if he did make statements).

If he felt so strongly, why’d he wait so long? Why didn’t he push back against ‘Stonewall Law?’

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2025 09:43

PaterPower · 21/04/2025 09:40

I don’t recall him saying much of this before the SC ruling (I’m happy to be corrected if he did make statements).

If he felt so strongly, why’d he wait so long? Why didn’t he push back against ‘Stonewall Law?’

I think he has said things before. I take notice when he says things. He's not said much, but I do think he's spoken in favour of single sex provision but I can't remember what.

Igneococcus · 21/04/2025 09:45

Trevor Phillips has commented before, I can have a look in the Times for previous comments.

OP posts:
mrshoho · 21/04/2025 09:46

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2025 09:36

It's worth stressing that Philips has previously talked about racism and how drives to be more inclusive have actively been classist and particularly adversely affected white working class boys. His comment was that this was particularly true of the media and has been a contributing factor in a lack of understanding of the Brexit vote and a rising mistrust in the media and various public institutions. It's an observation that is also reflected in the grooming gangs debate (another subject that just won't die and is fuelling Reform).

Philips intervention is a significant one from this respect too. Hes labour. He's respected. (I've heard comment that Starmer needs Blair to do a speech before he can commit to a position - Phillips is probably the next best thing).

He is likely to be listened to by many moderates within Labour.

Don't underestimate this article.

Completely agree. With regard to race relations/political correctness he was such a key figure and voice. He showed great courage in admitting years down the line that in some areas the movement had gone too far and to the detriment of the white working class. I admired him for his humility to hold his hands up. Politicians please read.

Igneococcus · 21/04/2025 09:52

There is this from February 2025:
"As I have written before, no one should be forced to bow to fashionable adolescent nonsense about dozens of “genders” being available to men and women. My own employees and staff know I won’t be putting pronouns on my emails; there is no reason why a message I send to Martha should be different to one meant for Arthur. Discriminating in that way would fly in the face of everything I’ve fought for my whole life."

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borntobequiet · 21/04/2025 09:53

This is an article from last year that covers a number of issues including gender, and references a training course that he mentions in a recent Telegraph (or Spectator?) podcast on the SC ruling that’s been linked to on here recently.

https://archive.is/7o8zJ

Original (paywalled)

https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/right-to-offend-is-essential-to-being-british-nw360lj9g

Right to offend is essential to being British

Labour assured us the culture wars were over but an increase in institutional censorship shows they are anything but

https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/right-to-offend-is-essential-to-being-british-nw360lj9g

Igneococcus · 21/04/2025 09:54

He also commented on the fine given to UofSussex. He's not only just caught up with this topic.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 21/04/2025 09:55

PaterPower · 21/04/2025 09:40

I don’t recall him saying much of this before the SC ruling (I’m happy to be corrected if he did make statements).

If he felt so strongly, why’d he wait so long? Why didn’t he push back against ‘Stonewall Law?’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/02/12/sir-trevor-phillips-scorns-stonewalls-ironic-attack-uk-equalities/
(Dated 2022)

Trevor Phillips AT trevorptweets
Culture wars do matter, whether we like it or not. For critical race theory to succeed people of colour must fail. For trans activists to get their way, women must be erased. What being woke really means for race equality and for feminism in thetimes today.
https://www.thetimes.com/comment/article/the-march-of-wokeism-is-an-all-pervasive-new-oppression-s7dw3s5lr
(Dated 2020)

Phillips on race in 2015
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02m37ld

He was suspended from Labour in 2020 over Islamophobia
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51797316
This is significant - he was talking about grooming gangs and cultural problems. Consider that Labour has had to roll back significantly on this and there was a review announced on the subject earlier this year (which again seems to have been killed off). My point here is that Philips was very firmly reading the room and stuck his neck out on it.

His BBC documentary on race is definitely worth a watch.

He was saying this way back in 2008
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2008/oct/29/social-exclusion-race-immigration
Special measures are needed to help the true losers from the economic recession - the poorer, white working class - if an anti-migrant backlash is to be avoided, the head of Britain's equality and human rights commission, Trevor Phillips, warned yesterday.

He is very much a Cassandra... And every single time he's been proved spot on. Ignore him at your peril is all I can say.

Above all else, he's as far removed from far right as you can be.

The march of wokeism is an all-pervasive new oppression

I was taking part in an online seminar with several hundred public servants recently when one of them started his question to me with an earnest apology: “I am

https://www.thetimes.com/comment/article/the-march-of-wokeism-is-an-all-pervasive-new-oppression-s7dw3s5lr

TheOtherRaven · 21/04/2025 09:56

WandaSiri · 21/04/2025 08:24

It's a really, really good article. Top work and a welcome counterblast to Melanie Field's claims.

I don't blame Trevor Phillips for introducing GR protections. It was done in a different political climate.
I do wish it hadn't been done in that way because it sits very uncomfortably alongside 7 other protected characteristics all of which are objectively verifiable physical/physiological or legal states. It's really the odd one out. As a separate PC it's basically turned sexual fetish into a PC along with mental distress. It's vague and undefinable. As a belief in transhumanism or gendered souls it should be left to the Grainger test to see if it is capable of being a protected belief and if so, fall under the PC of Religion or Belief.

ETA: So basically I am agreeing with you, in case that wasn't clear.

Edited

All good points.

It demonstrates really that naive good intentions are easily exploited by bad actors, and that law makers must think one hell of a lot further than being 'kind'. With their cynical safeguarding hat on of asking the difficult questions and thinking the unthinkable - in particular 'how could this be exploited, what loopholes could be found and how could this be potentially used to harm others' and 'what if we're being sold a lot of emotive bunkum by bad actors with hidden purposes'.

A large part of why at the moment we absolutely do not want any attempts at a misogyny law which would end up being used as a weapon by the gender lobby to beat women with, and why the conversion law will end up bouncing around between houses hopefully for a very long time before going back to the long grass as it has every time a government has seriously started to unpack it.

PencilsInSpace · 21/04/2025 10:07

'There should never have been the slightest doubt as to the meaning of the 2010 legislation.'

No there shouldn't but it's worth remembering Trevor Phillips' foundational part in the confusion. C&P from a post I made the other day:

On Trevor Phillips' watch, it was EHRC's job to write the statutory code for the new equality act. It says things like this:

'If a service provider provides single- or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate.

'any exception to the prohibition of discrimination must be applied as restrictively as possible and the denial of a service to a transsexual person should only occur in exceptional circumstances. A service provider can have a policy on provision of the service to transsexual users but should apply this policy on a case-by-case basis in order to determine whether the exclusion of a transsexual person is proportionate in the individual circumstances.'

I found the consultation documents on archived EHRC pages. Put the following links in web.archive.org for archive pages with downloadable links:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/equality-act-codes-practice-post-consultation-report

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/legislative-framework/equality-bill/equality-bill-codes-of-practice-consultation/

The original draft of the stat code was very sensible and just went through what the EA says in clear language. That's not the version we ended up with. The post-consultation report says:

'Various transsexual stakeholder groups responded to the formal consultation and also participated in the parallel consultation events taking place on the non-statutory guidance. Feedback from the consultation events was incorporated into the employment and services codes where appropriate, particularly on issues of confidentiality, use of single sex services and the legal definition of transgender.

'A number of concerns were raised about the exceptions, in particular the exceptions for charities, single sex services and separate services.
These sections have been revised as a result.'

At the end of the document there is a list of those consulted which includes Press for Change, GIRES and a:gender (the civil service TRA org).

So it's a bit rich to hear Trevor Phillips talking about people who should know better who have allowed their organisations to become captured when that is exactly what happened at EHRC under his watch. It's easy to point at Stonewall etc., they have been dreadful, but the damage was done right from the start in EHRC's statutory code. It gave the TRA orgs a really solid basis on which to build their misinformation campaigns. Stonewall etc. have spent the past decade telling us that their guidance is fully compliant with the EA stat code and the worst of it is they were right.

PencilsInSpace · 21/04/2025 10:11

I mean, I'm all for golden bridges but having spent over a decade banging our heads against the unworkable 'case-by-case' nonsense in the stat code, surely there must be some accountability?

Datun · 21/04/2025 10:16

So it's a bit rich to hear Trevor Phillips talking about people who should know better who have allowed their organisations to become captured when that is exactly what happened at EHRC under his watch.

Yes, I read that yesterday, pencils, when you posted it.

And I'm really struggling with what he has said today. Because it appears as though he was just as duped as everybody else. but either doesn't realise, or isn't admitting it

RethinkingLife · 21/04/2025 10:31

PencilsInSpace · 21/04/2025 10:07

'There should never have been the slightest doubt as to the meaning of the 2010 legislation.'

No there shouldn't but it's worth remembering Trevor Phillips' foundational part in the confusion. C&P from a post I made the other day:

On Trevor Phillips' watch, it was EHRC's job to write the statutory code for the new equality act. It says things like this:

'If a service provider provides single- or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate.

'any exception to the prohibition of discrimination must be applied as restrictively as possible and the denial of a service to a transsexual person should only occur in exceptional circumstances. A service provider can have a policy on provision of the service to transsexual users but should apply this policy on a case-by-case basis in order to determine whether the exclusion of a transsexual person is proportionate in the individual circumstances.'

I found the consultation documents on archived EHRC pages. Put the following links in web.archive.org for archive pages with downloadable links:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/equality-act-codes-practice-post-consultation-report

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/legislative-framework/equality-bill/equality-bill-codes-of-practice-consultation/

The original draft of the stat code was very sensible and just went through what the EA says in clear language. That's not the version we ended up with. The post-consultation report says:

'Various transsexual stakeholder groups responded to the formal consultation and also participated in the parallel consultation events taking place on the non-statutory guidance. Feedback from the consultation events was incorporated into the employment and services codes where appropriate, particularly on issues of confidentiality, use of single sex services and the legal definition of transgender.

'A number of concerns were raised about the exceptions, in particular the exceptions for charities, single sex services and separate services.
These sections have been revised as a result.'

At the end of the document there is a list of those consulted which includes Press for Change, GIRES and a:gender (the civil service TRA org).

So it's a bit rich to hear Trevor Phillips talking about people who should know better who have allowed their organisations to become captured when that is exactly what happened at EHRC under his watch. It's easy to point at Stonewall etc., they have been dreadful, but the damage was done right from the start in EHRC's statutory code. It gave the TRA orgs a really solid basis on which to build their misinformation campaigns. Stonewall etc. have spent the past decade telling us that their guidance is fully compliant with the EA stat code and the worst of it is they were right.

I wonder if the EHRC as then constituted not only ignored relevant discussions that had already happened but had never considered or imagined edge cases such as Yaniv and the beauticians.

PencilsInSpace · 21/04/2025 10:34

myplace · 21/04/2025 08:31

Gender reassignment would have been considered verifiable at the time. No one imagined Pippa Bunce. They were thinking of people who were under the care of doctors and having treatment.

Gender reassignment first made an appearance in the 1999 regs which amended the Sex Discrimination Act:

'““gender reassignment” means a process which is undertaken under medical supervision for the purpose of reassigning a person’s sex by changing physiological or other characteristics of sex, and includes any part of such a process;”.'

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1102/regulation/2/made

When the SDA was folded into the new EA in 2010 the requirement for medical supervision was dropped.

borntobequiet · 21/04/2025 10:54

Clearly not women in any way other than in their own head so…

maximalistmaximus · 21/04/2025 11:17

Talking Sense