Stonewall resurrecting the 'conversion therapy' bill

[ArabellaScott]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/28/stonewall-will-fight-to-ban-all-lgbt-conversion-practices-says-new-chief

Welcome to the new boss, just the same as the old boss. Unrepentant and repeating all the same tropes.

And right on cue, here's the beeb to back up the narrative.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w1gl530vvo

But it doesn't have the be psychologists? These 'therapies' can be performed by church figures, leaders, other community figures etc. It is disingenuous to misrepresent the issue like this. There are people practicing conversion therapy in the UK.

It's not particularly clear that there are, have you read the thread?

As far as what is not already illegal, it seems to be, maybe, a small number of cases of people praying over someone who agrees to that or requests it.

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/news/new-research-reveals-alarming-scale-of-conversion-practices-in-great-britain

'One in ten (10 per cent) of LGBTQ+ people have experienced ‘exorcism’'

Eng & Wales LGBT population according to 2021 census:

Around 1.5 million people (3.2%) identified with an LGB+ orientation (“Gay or Lesbian”, “Bisexual” or “Other sexual orientation”).

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/sexuality/bulletins/sexualorientationenglandandwales/census2021

This means that 150,000 people have apparently undergone exorcisms in the UK for the purpose of changing their sexuality (and/or gender identity, although I've not found any evidence of the latter).

Is this figure credible?

Given how low the church attending figure is for the UK is I find it unlikely and even if that figure is accurate I’m assuming would slant towards certain types of Christianity and other faiths. I find it hard to believe that the average vicar in the Anglian church even believes in exorcism let alone practices it as I believe they have get permission from their Bishop.

apologies, I should have said 'in England and Wales', not the UK.

Yes - just look at the definitions in that "report":

"The data, which covers reports of physical assault, pseudo-scientific counselling, prayer as a form of healing, ‘corrective rape’, exorcism, community exclusion and more, indicates that these practices remain widespread".

It's more of that Humpty Dumpty language: "When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less"

Stonewall is being noisy, just as Labour have gone very very quite on the subject. Stonewall are being daft. Theres local elections soon. Now really isn't a smart move.

I find it interesting that the Assisted Dying Bill just feel down the back of the sofa until 2029. This one will go the same way. Its too toxic.

I wish everyone would stop tiptoeing round the obvious: this is overwhelmingly a ND and same sex attracted phenomenon. A few outliers are traumatised and / or narcissists and the middle aged men are largely fetishists (some are autistic and have sex as their 'special interest', others are just straightforward fetishists).

I'm so bored of all this now. The world is on the verge of implosion and we are STILL having to focus on this made up bs. I had to sit in training a few months ago with a perfectly obvious (and lovely) autistic lesbian who had decided she was a 'they / them'. Woman in her later years in a patient facing role. I just thought wtf is going on for you? It just all smacked of adolescent attention seeking.

Helen Joyce on Stonewall's new research:

'...the research wasn’t actually published – all that has come out so far is this piece and an item on Stonewall’s website written like a particularly uninformative press release. (The pollster Stonewall used, Opinium, is a member of the British Polling Council, and one of the conditions of membership is that any research that is not kept completely private must be made public, either by being placed in full online or by being sent to anyone who asks. It’s therefore quite surprising to me that neither Opinium nor Stonewall has published the research – I, and no doubt many others, have already written to Opinium asking to be sent the full thing.)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/28/stonewall-will-fight-to-ban-all-lgbt-conversion-practices-says-new-chief

Even setting aside questions about publication by Opinium/ Stonewall, it’s quite unusual for any serious media outlet to publish findings from research that involved any type of polling without giving any methodological details. At a minimum, when I was commissioning and editing articles at The Economist, I would have demanded the correspondent in their coverage how many people were polled and when, how respondents had been selected and what efforts had been made to ensure that they were an unbiased sample of whatever group they were being taken to represent. I would also want to know the precise wording of the relevant questions.

None of that is in the Guardian article, even though the findings include some really startling claims. According to Blake, 10% of “LGBTQ+” people have been subjected to exorcism in an attempt to change their “sexual orientation or gender identity”. I simply cannot imagine letting a claim like this fly by, either as an interviewer or an editor.

First, who are “LGBTQ+” people? What’s the “+”, and what could it mean to attempt to change their sexual orientation or gender identity? Which people within that group have experienced this? Is it mostly gay people, or mostly trans people?

And then, what sort of exorcism? Private or group prayers? Laying on of hands? Exhortation? Speaking in tongues? Beating? If, say, 3% of the population of the UK are “LGBTQ+”, that’s about 2m people, which would mean about 200,000 exorcisms. Where is the coverage of this enormous, ubiquitous scandal? Why has nobody ever heard a thing about it?''

Ah! I think this may be it from Opinium's website:

https://www.opinium.com/stonewall-press-tables/

Q:I4. Have you experienced any of the following with the aim to change/alter your sexuality or gender identity? Exorcism.

2000 respondents. 202 say 'yes'

140 men. 56 women. 5 non-binary. 0 transgender. Another gender identity 70.

The results were weighted to be nationally representative on region, age, gender, and gender identity. Weightset targets have been taken from Annual Population Survey 2022, 2021 England and Wales census, and Scottish Public Health Network Estimates.

gender but not sex, gender identity not gender reassignment and would that be the discredited census data around LGBTQ+?

im sure it’s all water tight methodology though

The classifications are a bit confusing because there are so many options for how people wish to describe themselves. I can count twelve options for the LGBTQ+ umbrella.

Yes, eyeballs, exactly.

'The results were weighted to be nationally representative on region, age, gender, and gender identity'

Fucking how?! Even if one is actually using 'gender' as a synonym for 'sex', so we can have figures on sex, and if so why on earth then bother with 'gender identity;' and why is sexuality included in amongst 'gender identity'?

How does one find weighting targets for 'gender identity' when that includes 12 categories with overlapping meanings that are as far as I know not all included in the census. No idea what the Scottish Public Health Network Estimates are - is this the one that had 24 different genders to choose from?

I see there that 5 people reported exorcism in Scotland.

The exorcism issue is interesting. Here is a 2017 article about another survey suggesting a sharp rise in exorcism practices in the UK used particularly in Pentecostal and West African- associated churches, and used to 'treat' mental health issues (I'm reminded of Victoria Climbié). If the Stonewall survey has shown up big cluster of exorcism experiences, it suggests some form of bias in how it recruited participants, despite its attempts to avoid this. It also suggests that homophobic religious groups are a much bigger problem for LGBT rights in this country than TERFS (i know many would see is as the same). I'd approve of Stonewall being a lot louder in the specifics it identifies in this survey - unless of course they don't trust their own figures.

I think the figures are generally not believed. And Stonewall hasn't released the research, which was supposed to happen on Friday.

The exorcism response is a tell for it not being credible. Exorcism barely happens in the Catholic Church these days - a priest will have to jump through all sorts of bureaucratic hoops to get permission - and I'm assuming it's rarer still in the CofE.

Where it does exist is in African ethnic churches, which suggests that either the alphabet community is disproportionately Nigerian and Congolese, or that the figures are bullshit.

I suppose it's possible that conservative religious families praying for their kids is being interpreted as "exorcism", but surely we can be confident that members of the alphabet community would never dream of over-dramatising their history for victim points.

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/controversial-church-carries-out-gay-29734983

I mean, this church sounds batshit. This is in Scotland. Pentecostal.

And here's Scotland's Catholic exorcist (article from 2018):

'Over 15 years, he's dealt with just 15 credible cases, and while he’s never had to perform a full exorcism, he has witnessed apparent possessions. ...“I’ve been involved in praying with and praying over people who are being disturbed, and their reaction to being prayed over was similar in some respects to what people report in full blown exorcisms,” he says. '

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16175749.interview-exorcist/

I've posted a link upthread.

Thanks for the link to the Opinium tables @ArabellaScott.

Is there an explanatory key somewhere? In the Gender sections, why does the total number of respondents add up to more than 2,000?

I've worked out that NET means the overall total of sub-categories. So "NET Yes" means all those who answered Yes regardless of which time period. Does "NET Transgender" means all respondents who said they were transgender, regardless of TW or TM?

And Unweighted and Weighted: does Unweighted mean the answers that the respondents actually gave, and Weighted are the answers that would have been expected if the sample group matched the proportional occurrence of those categories of people in the UK?

The weighted distributions under LGBTQ+ Umbrella are very interesting, if I'm interpreting them correctly. More people identify as bisexual than homosexual? In a group of 2,000 LGBTQ+ people, 915 men/women would be expected to say they were bisexual, compared with 830 men/woman saying they are homosexual?

I used to attend an Evangelical church that started a group for gay men and cross dressers after I'd left. Two friends attended. One I tried to convince not to get involved. The other I didn't know was involved until after the group imploded. I'm wary of telling their stories, but will say alot of damage was done.
My concern, in relation to proposed legislation, is that one friend was enthusiastic about recruiting other men to the group. The other had some level of responsibility in the church (volunteer, not paid), I don't know if it extended to helping coordinate the group for gay men (he's the one who I hadn't known was gay until after). How would it help either of them to be facing legal repercussions for their involvement at the same time as they deal with the fallout of their involvement, come to make sense of their faith and their sexuality in an affirming way - I think it may be hard for those outside the tradition to understand. This group was a peer support group, noone involved was straight. Lots of internalised homophobia and wishful thinking and no clear delineation of the baddies who must be prosecuted and the goodies who just need to be loved. I can't see how the heavy hand of the law would help.

Is there an explanatory key somewhere?

This is all I could see:

'The survey has been conducted between 24th January – 11th March 2024 among 2,000 adults who identified as members of the LGBTQ+ community who live in England, Scotland, or Wales. Participants were interviewed via online survey panels without being told the topic in advance to preclude selection-bias. The results were weighted to be nationally representative on region, age, gender, and gender identity. Weightset targets have been taken from Annual Population Survey 2022, 2021 England and Wales census, and Scottish Public Health Network Estimates.'

In the Gender sections, why does the total number of respondents add up to more than 2,000?

Perhaps some people are ticking several boxes?

Does "NET Transgender" means all respondents who said they were transgender, regardless of TW or TM?

I assume so. The 'gender' categories are not clear at all, tbh. And seem to be all mixed in with 'sexuality', too. How someone can be classified in terms of sex as well as gender is a mystery, really.

The weighted distributions under LGBTQ+ Umbrella are very interesting, if I'm interpreting them correctly. More people identify as bisexual than homosexual?

Yeah, I'm unsure how someone can be 'Gay / Homosexual and another gender', tbh.

"Gay/homosexual and another gender" boggles my mind.

If I'm reading the crosstabs correctly, they have bisexual outnumbering homosexual among women, but the reverse among men. That actually does make intuitive sense to me.

Opinium are a reputable firm as far as polling goes - we're not talking about those Pink News surveys where Benjamin Cohen would announce that 97% of Pink News readers agreed with him. I think the problem is that they're having to reconcile their polling methodology with the categories/questions that the customer finds meaningful.

So I think the problem is less in the polling and more in Stonewall's batshit ideological stance.

@TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged that's a very thoughtful post. But it's true I would like to see all organisations operating in the UK to be put on notice that it is against the law to work on individuals to change their sexuality. Maybe I'm unusual on this board in wanting to see a form of this law for gender identity as well, because I think it could be a law that could operate against some of the social contagion aspects. Thinking for example of that horrific cluster of looked-after children in the Blackpool area who are identifying as trans with the same doctor IIRC.

Also, if you're talking about 10% or fewer of a population... well, pollsters know that you can get 10% of respondents to agree to pretty much anything. There are probably 10% of the population who would tell a pollster that Elvis lives in an immortality clinic on the moon.

It becomes even trickier when you're trying to get meaningful data from small subsamples.