Another potential celebrity baby purchase 🙄.

[AnAlpacaForChristmasPleaseSanta]

Today I've been hanging around waiting for an appointment with a dwindling phone battery and the only reading materials on offer being last weekends newspapers. I was having a flick through the Mail on Sunday 😳 and saw this story by someone called Louise Thompson, who casually mentions that she and her partner would like to have another child "but would have to use a surrogate'.

I have to admit I'd never heard of her but a bit of nosy googling revealed that she's from Made in Chelsea and during the birth of her first child she suffered a major hemorrhage and months of PTSD afterwards. Something she seemingly has no qualms about potentially putting another woman through. I just despair.

The link to the article is behind a paywall but hopefully this will work.

It sounds like the social rule she's ‘setting’ is that it’s not her business to comment.

Everybody judges.
People may not express their conclusion or discuss their inner workings but everyone ends up with an opnion.

I never understand why people think is it ok to do it for your sister but not a stranger? The impact on the baby is still the same either way, and surely that’s the main consideration. The fact that money is or isn’t changing hands is secondary as far as I’m concerned.

It always baffles me on threads like this that people (rightly) bash celebrities that are willing to pay a surrogate, but then say they’d do it for a family member. There’s no sodding difference to the child you’re separating from its mum.

Paraphrasing Phoebe in Friends… there’s no selfless good deed!

What is the impact on the baby?

I think it's wrong to mention having to buy another woman's body and putting their life at risk or serious injuries at best and death at worst in the same casual way that most of us would talk about going to the shop and buying a load of bread.

"I'll have to use a surrogate this time" those were Louise Thomas's own words, I haven't made them up. If me saying that makes her sound rich and spoiled (and incidentally if it was one of her male MIC co stars saying that then I'd be calling him a spoilt little rich boy, make no mistakes about it) is spiteful and upsetting to anyone then they can cry me a river if they wish, but I stand by it.

And for someone who is apparently opposed to surrogacy, it's strange that you didn't mention it at all on your previous post.

ETA: if the "hearsay" accusation is based on me talking about tattle the other forum then 99% of the posts are about LTs Instagram post, things she has actually said.

@kungfoofightingwhat, being removed at birth from the person that’s been its home for nine months? I’m not a midwife, but in my (albeit) limited experience, the fourth trimester is a definite thing, and when I had my daughter she needed me in those first few months.

I do appreciate that in certain circumstances it isn’t possible for mum to be there for baby, and those circumstances are awful and unavoidable, but you wouldn’t ever plan for those.

I just don’t understand why you’d voluntarily put a baby (and a mother, for that matter) through that, and why it’s suddenly less of a moral issue to do it if you’re related to the ‘receiving’ parents.

There are many decades of research done on the impact and outcomes for children adopted as new borns or very young babies, showing that removal from the birth mother can have significant, sometimes life long negative impact on the child.

It used to be thought (any clearly some people still do think, or it suits them to think) that babies too young to remember being removed, who were placed with loving family who really wanted them, would have no ill effects, but it's not true. That's why adoption in this country moved from being about providing children to adults who wanted them, to providing families for children who needed them.

The legal standard for an adoption order to be made in the UK is that 'nothing else will do'. Unless it can be proved this child can't be left with birth family and get 'good enough ' care (and what counts as good enough is a pretty low bar), adoption cannot happen. Yet in surrogacy all that is out of the window, the potential harm to the child isn't a factor at all, all that matters is if you can find a woman who'll do it. Surrogacy completely ignores the impact on the child, it's purely concerned with the wants of the adults.

That’s interesting, thanks for sharing.

I wonder if there is any similar research looking at babies born with surrogates.

“There are many decades of research done on the impact and outcomes for children adopted as new borns or very young babies, showing that removal from the birth mother can have significant, sometimes life long negative impact on the child.”

What would this significant impact be exactly? What was observed?

Why is it strange that I didn't mention it in my previous post? What's that got to do with anything, frankly?

You have such strong feelings about Louise Thompson, yet you can't even get her name right.

Obviously it's up to you if you want to repeat spiteful misogynistic comments about another woman from a nasty little gossip site. We can all draw our own conclusions about what sort of person you are.

Having had my first baby four days ago, this process is very cruel - why does no one seem to think about the baby in this transaction? So many things are new and terrifying to it - light, sound, touch, even being able to move their limbs, as they now have the space.

Do people not think it might not be distressing to seperate them from the only person they have ever known?

You can't legally separate puppies from the mother until 8 weeks, yet human babies are not afforded the same protection.

Write to your MP. An old fashioned letter (they get so few that they pay more attention to these than to emails and phone calls). A review of surrogacy laws is already planned, so now is the perfect time to let them.know your views.

Why is it strange that you failed to mention being against surrogacy on a thread about just that. You have to ask?

You seem to be a big fan of LT so how do you feel about her buying a child? Does it sit ok with you as long as she asks nicely? After all it's important to #BeKind. (And not that it should matter but I accidentally spelt her name wrong once because my spell check change it and my dyslexic brain didn't notice).

Nice of you to pop onto my thread and fling a few insults my way too. FWIW you sound like a peach! Hope Louise appreciates all this effort you are putting in for her.

I just checked the WPUK response to the recent consultation (https://womansplaceuk.org/2023/11/15/surrogacy-law-reform-wpuk-meet-with-law-commissions/) in case it had useful points for letters.

I'd forgotten this utter nonsense:
"WPUK asked whether the Commissions had undertaken any reviews of the existing literature on adoption and the impact of adoption on birth mothers and children given up for adoption. WPUK was told that the Commissions had looked at the work of Susan Golombok at Cambridge University on donor conceived children and that this was felt to be a closer analogy than adoption." [my bolding]

Totally missing the whole 'removing a child' aspect, and the psychological consequences of that.

Aww congratulations 💐.
This is the crux of it.
This is what matters.
Anyone who cannot see this should be ashamed of themselves.

That removal from the birth mother can cause significant, sometimes lifelong, attachment difficulties. It's not guaranteed to happen, but it's a significant risk and we shouldn't knowingly taking significant risks to children's health, purely for the wants of adults.

Attachment difficulties and attachment disorder are poorly understood, difficult to live with, and difficult to treat. They can cause a person to struggle in pretty much every area of life.

Merail - I'm an adopter. My children are very clearly impacted by things which happened to them that they do not remember, that happened when they were too young to have any conscious memory or understanding.

I find the justification for surrogacy that babies won't remember, or that being wanted and loved makes up for it, really disturbing - we don't think it's ok to do stuff to adults as long as they won't remember it, why is it ok to do it to children? Is it ok to rape someone passed out drunk, as long as they won't remember it? If I have a traumatic head injury and don't remember my previous life, is it ok for a random man to take me home and tell me I'm his wife, if he really wants a wife and treats me well? The law and society says it's not, but what's the difference between that and surrogacy?

We now know the effect on being adopted at birth has on children and the adults they grow up into - even those with loving adopted parents and happy childhoods.

We now know the effect on donor-gamete conceived children and the adults they grow up into - again, even those with loving parents and happy childhoods.

And yet surrogacy is winner winner chicken dinner. Or is it just that enough surrogate children haven't grown up yet and started suing people.

@nothingcomestonothing I find the justification for surrogacy that babies won't remember, or that being wanted and loved makes up for it, really disturbing - we don't think it's ok to do stuff to adults as long as they won't remember it, why is it ok to do it to children? Is it ok to rape someone passed out drunk, as long as they won't remember it? If I have a traumatic head injury and don't remember my previous life, is it ok for a random man to take me home and tell me I'm his wife, if he really wants a wife and treats me well? The law and society says it's not, but what's the difference between that and surrogacy?

Very well put.
I'd love it if some of the pro surrogacy posters would come and answer you, they won't because they cant but it would be interesting to see them try.

I don’t think the rhetoric and analogies with rape, etc. are helpful.

It would be interesting to see some of the research and understand better what associations were found and the strength of those associations.

Totally agree. As a teacher, I am acutely aware of the impact that trauma and attachment issues have on a child. The state tries everything it can to avoid removing babies from their mothers, even in situations where it would be the best thing for the child. Children who are adopted are considered to be suffering a primal wound. Research has shown that the fourth trimester is vitally important for a child's development. However, all of this can go out of the window with surrogacy. It's cruel. Even pet breeders are not allowed to remove puppies/kittens at birth. Disgusting and needs to be banned. Babies should never be for sale. Women are not a uterus for rent. No one has right or expectation to have a child. I'm sorry for anyone with fertility issues but their right to be a parent does not trump a child's right to stay with its mother.

What are your objection to asking about a how a woman or man would deal with the aftermath of a rape where they had no memory of the event?

A paper on how the mothers heartbeat and voice assists in brain development
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4364233/

@AnSolas probably because it weakens the argument that it's ok to steal buy a baby from it's mum because it "won't remember".

I don’t have an objection to that. However it’s not the topic here.

I haven’t expressed that view anywhere?

What’s the point in coming onto a discussion board if you’re only interested in holding the entire conversation in your head? You’re rendering the thread a bit pointless.

My DD’s friend lost his wife and unborn child at 39 weeks due to rare complications of pregnancy leaving 2 children without a mother, him without his wife of 12 years, it may not be common but that risk alone is a reason to fan all commercial surrogacy. I think truly altruistic surrogacy should be allowed eg sister to sister or best friends sort of thing, this has always happened sometimes under the radar and very different from strangers acting as surrogates, still a risk to the mother but they will be doing it for good not for money!

a first step needs to be stopping passports being issued to the receiving parents, no idea how you do this but if they couldn’t fly it to fetch their commissioned child from a surrogate in poverty and have our government play ball issuing the passport they would need to think twice. I do have compassion for those who cannot have babies of their own but the rights of others trump this desire