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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mumsnet in The Economist: Bagehot

48 replies

RethinkingLife · 07/03/2025 13:15

25 years of Mumsnet and how it’s changed Britain 🇬🇧 is covered in Bagehot’s column in The Economist.

Quotation of FWR relevant section.

Mumsnetters have, however, been willing to be called unreasonable. In 2016 the trans lobby was in the ascendant. Slogans such as “trans women are women” were gaining ground; sites like Facebook and Twitter had suspended the accounts of some sceptics. Mumsnet did not suspend them, which caused it to lose advertising and attract insults. One article accused it of being “a toxic hotbed of transphobia”. Ms Roberts didn’t give in.
This was “hugely important”, says Hadley Freeman, a journalist. Some women used “the toxic hotbed” to organise “Man Friday” events at which they self-identified as men, wore fake beards and crashed male-only venues. Others used it to ask whether “aibu to think” that the trans stuff was going “too far”. One reason they resisted, says Janice Turner, a Times journalist who covered it, is that so many were mums. And nothing* *“brings home the fact biological sex is real more than giving birth”.
The trans debate is now ebbing. Mumsnetters are back to posting about the issues that really matter. aibu, asked a recent post, “to despise the word ‘comfy’?” Not much, then, has changed in the 25 years since Mumsnet began. And yet a lot has. yanbu if you think that Mumsnet made some of that change happen.

https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/03/06/how-mumsnet-changed-britain

archive: archive.is/yVJ1m

A computer screen displays a silhouette of a woman stretching across it, surrounded by speech bubbles containing various symbols like scribbles, exclamation marks, and stars. The background is red, with a keyboard and mouse in the foreground.

How Mumsnet changed Britain

The parenting website turns 25 this month

https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/03/06/how-mumsnet-changed-britain

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 09/03/2025 11:19

I can't read the article, I can't (work out how to) copy urls to archive sites on my mobile. I'm out and about for the day. Can anyone help, please?

RethinkingLife · 09/03/2025 11:28

SinnerBoy · 09/03/2025 11:19

I can't read the article, I can't (work out how to) copy urls to archive sites on my mobile. I'm out and about for the day. Can anyone help, please?

The archive in the OP doesn’t work for you?

https://archive.is/yVJ1m

Tapping the URL 3x doesn’t copy it?

OP posts:
PachacutisBadAuntie · 09/03/2025 11:29

SinnerBoy · 09/03/2025 11:19

I can't read the article, I can't (work out how to) copy urls to archive sites on my mobile. I'm out and about for the day. Can anyone help, please?

It's in the OP (Sunday brain? 😁)
https://archive.is/yVJ1m

Edit x post!

SinnerBoy · 09/03/2025 14:34

RethinkingLife · Today 11:28

The archive in the OP doesn’t work for you?

Oh dear, how embarrassing! I didn't spot that. I didn't know about clicking the url X 3...

OneAmberFinch · 09/03/2025 15:46

RethinkingLife · 09/03/2025 11:03

My usual Cassandra take is that people have been saying, “The tide is turning or it’s ebbing “ for years.

Yet this week, we’ve to wait on the FWS ruling which may effectively abolish women as a legal entity and sex class.

How many ETs or other legal challenges are in progress to defend rights that were thought to be givens and inalienable?

And as for politicians, entire sectors, organisations, ALBs, the voluntary sector-this will persist in what feels like full flood.

This is true - the "long march through the institutions" has been very effective!

highame · 10/03/2025 07:47

Talkinpeace · 07/03/2025 13:57

Maybe the key point is that the article recognises that some Social Media sites are a force for support and positive change.
The Economist has been pretty solid over the years about the absurdity of some TRA viewpoints
and they still let Helen Joyce hold events at their offices.

I agree. I was really surprised when I first read GC opinions in the Economist. They also paid their women journalists the same as the men. A journal that never shy's away from difficult stuff. I think Hadley Freeman did some stuff for them and quite a few others.

When something serious suddenly becomes a joke, you know it's just a matter of time. Regardless of what's in the pipeline and the battles still to be fought, the biggest step was watching those small first steps of realising that it was all so very idiotic and that only the hard of thinking would stay the course.

Watching the judges faces in the FWS case has been an absolute joy. Win or lose the case, the balance has tipped. Eventually the war will be won

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 12/03/2025 23:46

Yes they have had a number of good and enlightening articles, by some key female (and a few male IIRC) GC voices on this.

Though I was also infuriated by calling weaning "trivial" - it's setting new humans on a good/healthy course for life (hopefully!), how can that be "trivial"?

As for the gender debate, I think the biggest difference now is that "No Debate" has finally been exploded for good, and I do think MN was a HUGE factor in that. As a previous poster said, there was a time when it felt as though nobody could speak in any kind of critical or even questioning way about transgenderism/gender, anywhere - at work you risked losing your job, outside work, social ostracism, online you would get banned from pretty much anywhere for the mildest comments, and as a result anyone who did have concerns felt completely isolated. Well, THAT has changed massively - while there are still some workplaces and social groups etc. trying to keep us silent, and many women still feeling they have to bite their tongues a lot of the time, there are now massive communities of women online having the discussions, and far more platforms allowing them, the issues are appearing in the media more and more, and those trying to silence women's opinions, or cover up things like the risks of puberty blockers or of men in women's prisons, are increasingly being challenged in the courts. With the result that more and more people who had no idea of what was going on are being peaked, all the time, and then going on to peak others. And that genie is NOT going to go back in the bottle!

Igmum · 13/03/2025 18:38

I agree that 23 threads on SP in rapid succession is not my definition of ebbing but suspect this is lazy journalism copying a press release on the basis that the Telegraph has a very similar article. I’m torn between simply being delighted to see Mumsnet mentioned in a context that doesn’t immediately say ‘bigoted transphobes’, feeling patronised and wanting to shake my head slowly at them saying ‘tsk tsk’

Talkinpeace · 13/03/2025 20:38

Igmum · 13/03/2025 18:38

I agree that 23 threads on SP in rapid succession is not my definition of ebbing but suspect this is lazy journalism copying a press release on the basis that the Telegraph has a very similar article. I’m torn between simply being delighted to see Mumsnet mentioned in a context that doesn’t immediately say ‘bigoted transphobes’, feeling patronised and wanting to shake my head slowly at them saying ‘tsk tsk’

The former business editor of the Economist is one Helen Joyce.
They are in no way jumping on a bandwagon.
They have been pretty consistent for several years in seeing the problems.

Igmum · 13/03/2025 20:57

@Talkinpeace I know. I’ve subscribed to the Economist for over 30 years now. I greatly appreciate their stance on these issues and they’ve written some really good pieces on trans stuff including a really good one years ago on TW in prisons (I suspect by HJ). I didn’t mean that they write like the Grauniad. I mean that this particular article is the sort of lazy journalism I don’t expect to see in the Economist because it is so similar to the Telegraph piece I suspect both are copying a Mumsnet press release.

Codlingmoths · 14/03/2025 00:36

Hermyknee · 07/03/2025 13:41

Because he hasn’t looked at the site in-depth. He knows most about it from social media. And I reckon there’s nothing than generates more viral posts about mumsnet than if you mention gender.

Because Mumsnet hasn’t delivered any change in the Middle East nor brought down the monarchy, but it has had a substantive impact on the debate on gender in the uk.

I like the article. It’s typical economist language and I don’t think it’s intended to be dismissive or condescending, they regularly discuss important topics with a tongue in cheek tone. They aren’t treating mumsnet and the gender debate any less seriously than they might sometimes refer to the likelihood of ww3 tone wise.

Valeriekat · 14/03/2025 02:42

Greyskybluesky · 07/03/2025 13:18

"The trans debate is now ebbing."

Uh, really?

I thought it was a terrible article.

Grammarnut · 14/03/2025 09:50

Hermyknee · 07/03/2025 13:22

‘The trans debate is now ebbing. Mumsnetters are back to posting about the issues that really matter.’

AIBU about the sentence after that one?

How patronising. Patting the 'little woman' on the head as misogynists always do. And I see a drawback in the trans madness, but the tide is not going out yet.

Grammarnut · 14/03/2025 10:03

Where did he get the idea we are 'Guardian reading harpies'? Last time I looked here the Guardian was on the list of pro-tra publications none of us have much respect for.
Article not very good. Considering the Spectator has been resolutely anti-trans for some while it's pretty poor, in fact.

Fenlandia · 14/03/2025 10:29

Grammarnut · 14/03/2025 10:03

Where did he get the idea we are 'Guardian reading harpies'? Last time I looked here the Guardian was on the list of pro-tra publications none of us have much respect for.
Article not very good. Considering the Spectator has been resolutely anti-trans for some while it's pretty poor, in fact.

Edited

I bought a Spectator subscription because of James Kirkup's articles in around 2018-ish on the topic. That and Munroe Bergdorf were two of the things that got me packing some Kendal mint cake and heading for the foothills. I discovered FWR not long after!

Grammarnut · 14/03/2025 11:22

Fenlandia · 14/03/2025 10:29

I bought a Spectator subscription because of James Kirkup's articles in around 2018-ish on the topic. That and Munroe Bergdorf were two of the things that got me packing some Kendal mint cake and heading for the foothills. I discovered FWR not long after!

Me too, actually! Which was why I found the article disappointing.

LittleBigHead · 14/03/2025 15:05

OTOH, Kathleen Stock in today's Unherd on an early alternative to Mumsnet (and MN itself) is fab!

https://unherd.com/2025/03/midnight-panty-raids-on-mumsnet/

What was the forum she talks about? Surely it couldn't have been Netmums, which I couldn't read because it hurt my eyes and was full of pretty illiterate posters ...

BulbousSpring · 14/03/2025 16:20

OMG she was on BMC! Wow. Chels, Skirt, Howdie and the magnificent Joan of Argos (who I have also met IRL) are all names I know. We had left handed popcorn scoops and fuzzy felt and did panty raids. It was a lovely site and still half going on FB.

LittleBigHead · 14/03/2025 16:35

It sounds like the old Woman's Hour chat forum that the BBC used to host. And gosh did we give men a hard time on that one.

BulbousSpring · 14/03/2025 20:32

LittleBigHead · 14/03/2025 16:35

It sounds like the old Woman's Hour chat forum that the BBC used to host. And gosh did we give men a hard time on that one.

Nah with those names it's definitely BMC. In the early 2000s it was much more friendly/approachable than MN.

KatieAlcock · 14/03/2025 20:37

I was peaked on Mumsnet and then peaked further by @AgnesBadenPowell and ended up being expelled from Girl Guiding and taking them to court (and winning).
Things have very much calmed down I feel in the UK anyway (US is another matter) but I've now added a string to my research bow on the back of this. I also found a lovely group of local women through FWR.
Couldn't have done it all without you lovely lot, thanks to my mum, my agent, my husband etc. ,sobs

LittleBigHead · 15/03/2025 05:40

BulbousSpring · 14/03/2025 20:32

Nah with those names it's definitely BMC. In the early 2000s it was much more friendly/approachable than MN.

I didn’t mean that the group DocStock was talking about was the Woman’s Hour forum - just that they sounded similar! You know “sounds like” …

myplace · 15/03/2025 07:15

It’s ebbing in the way the fight for women’s rights was ebbing in the 80s. The hardest work was done, but eyes on the ball as it gets derailed all too easily. To mix a metaphor.

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