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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Corporate wankology and international woman's day

28 replies

CreationNat1on · 24/02/2025 15:25

My company has asked me to be involved in celebrating IWD by giving a personal insight into my life to date.

I don't think men are ever asked to provide details of their personal life journey. I m not that keen, but don't feel I can refuse. What's your take on it?

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Soundsofblue · 24/02/2025 15:27

Do you work in my place? I’ve been asked to do the same. Also give my thoughts on what it all means to me etc. It’s not like I have enough to do.
Im all for women in the workplace but this feels like it’s going too far - like you say, men don’t get asked to do it…

GreyGoggles · 24/02/2025 15:29

IWD stuff can be genuinely helpful or just performative. If you are in a place where you have great life and work lessons to pass on to more junior women in your work place then I think it's not nothing. If it's a networking session where the women at your company could enhance their prospects, or it comes with useful training, etc. then it could make a difference. Or if you can tie it into a women's or girl's charity that you support that's great. If you can make it really a meaningful thing then I'd go for it.

CreationNat1on · 24/02/2025 15:33

Thank you, yes, any guidance on how to make it meaningful would help. I don't feel like I can say No.

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TeenToTwenties · 24/02/2025 15:38

Can you do all the things where you are / may have been indirectly discriminated due to being female?

Eg my car is designed around a male body, if I had endometriosis it would take 7 years to diagnose, ppe is too long in the leg, to get it to fit round the chest it needs to be 3 sizes too big in the arms. Etc?

ACatAsleepInYourHat · 24/02/2025 15:40

I used to come up against this Corporate Wankery occasionally when I worked for a large multinational organisation. After the age of 55 or so, when my given fucks were getting fewer and fewer by the year, I simply used to go full Bartleby The Scrivener on them. If I didn't want to do it

"I would prefer not to."

was my reply. No scrabbling around to justify myself, no further explanation. But I'm an awkward old mare, and I had age and seniority on my side. And it used to work!

CreationNat1on · 24/02/2025 15:42

Yes I would love a list (why do they think a personal shory is required, I don't want to share details of my relationship status or my family history with work colleagues). I would be delighted to use the opportunity to list out ways women are still discriminated against. Everyday mysogyny etc.

Even putting women in this personal bind of sharing personal details in a professional setting, is something men just don't have to give consideration to.

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nocoolnamesleft · 24/02/2025 15:42

Wow. Have they actually asked literal women? That's refreshing!

GreyGoggles · 24/02/2025 16:26

I would push back on the personal aspect and share the professional, unless it's really good advice that younger women really need to hear and you feel comfortable sharing. If it was me I'd share generic personal things like - over my career these are my top personal and career learnings from me and my female friends experiences:
1 don't marry your glass ceiling (applies to life and work)
2 (from Ali Wong) they told us having it all was work and family, but that's not enough! We also need and deserve pleasure and fun
3 don't take career/work life balance advice from men with stay at home wives (this drives me bananas in my place)
4 you may have got where you are by being a high achiever but let go of that because as soon as you have a caring responsibility you have to become comfortable with 'good enough'
5 sit at the table
6 when they look around for someone to take the notes/ organise the birthday cake etc. sit on your hands and say nothing, or suggest one of the guys does it
7 have your work plan and your personal plan and be careful about what you share with who
That kind of stuff (basically the years of bitter experience stuff!)

Lobsterteapot · 24/02/2025 16:31

You could do the whole - diversity of thought thing which is genuinely good for business.

Encourage people to have diverse opinions around their tables/challenge them to ask someone different the next time they want to socialise an idea or problem.

zzplec · 24/02/2025 16:36

Are you in a senior role and they think your story could be inspirational? And did they actually stipulate your personal life or did they mean your professional life?

CreationNat1on · 24/02/2025 16:43

I'm senior in a small company and yes I pushed back on sharing personal details and said I would support from a professional perspective, they said they wanted personal contributions.

Thanks for the suggestions. All are v helpful.

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Mysteryfemale · 24/02/2025 16:48

If it's anything like my employer they will also ask men to do this but only allies, who will explain that they do school drop off twice a week so understand the challenges women face. And of course that they are committed to women's rights because they have daughters now 🙄

Mysteryfemale · 24/02/2025 16:51

And our male senior partner will be photographed doing the stupid hand position of the year

Corporate wankology and international woman's day
NPET · 24/02/2025 17:03

I can understand how you feel but could you "use" this opportunity to point out all the ways in which you/we are discriminated against and how IWD SHOULD be able to attack that. Don't shirk from making personal attacks on men (tho presumably not the boss!).

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2025 17:22

CreationNat1on · 24/02/2025 15:25

My company has asked me to be involved in celebrating IWD by giving a personal insight into my life to date.

I don't think men are ever asked to provide details of their personal life journey. I m not that keen, but don't feel I can refuse. What's your take on it?

"Whats the difference between a man and a women.

Well men are the default and women are the other.

We get one day where this is apparently taken seriously in a performative way rather than having policy that reflects an understanding of this the other 364 days of the year as standard.

Instead we have a lack of reflection by bosses on why telling a female staff member that she is required to do a speech talking about her personal life as part of her work, might not be terribly appropriate and may in fact be; shock horror - sexist in its own right.

Women face difficultly saying no to this, even if it makes them feel uncomfortable and they feel its intrusive because if they do they will be viewed as 'difficult' by their employer. This is due to women's role in society as a whole, where they are expected to be compliant and to give. They represent the 'personal' rather than the 'professional' part of life and many companies have an attitude that reflects this. Women objecting are described in very different words to men: "confrontational" rather than "independently thinking" for example. These gendered descriptive words tell a lot about a company culture. We should think more about these issues and expectations.

Research shows that:
Communal language is mainly applied to women, and it invokes stereotypical female traits like being supportive, showing warmth, and helping the team. Agentic language is mainly applied to men and is more about getting the job done, taking charge, and being independent.
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/worklife/article/20170329-the-hidden-sexism-in-workplace-language

Another example of this is where female celebrities are asked about how having children has affected their career constantly in interviews as a default question. A male actors would only discuss this if he initated it in an interview because the default expectation is that his partner would be the one responsible for childcare.

Thus a woman is automatically assumed to have different priorites and perhaps not be as ambitious nor as committed to a job purely because she's a woman regardless of her performance or has to walk the tightrope of justifying her career over childcare responsibilities in a way that isn't true of men.

A woman is not asked if she want to contribute to women's day in this way. She is told - by men - that she should be doing a presentation on her personal life to date. Thus, we must ask ourselves, who is IWD for? Is it for women by women with the views and feelings of working women truly represented. Or is using women to present a false narrative of equality in the workplace by this failure to question whether asking if a presentation of your personal life might not necessarily be wanted or even appropriate?

It is a shame that we have to stand up and talk about power dynamics and how, even on IWD, the balance of power is tipped to this idea of men as default.

Men aren't interested in how we are responsible for the packed lunch in the morning in addition to our full day in the office. They aren't interested in who has done all the washing, who has to go to the supermarket afterwork. Who has to run the kids to kids club. Because if they were, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And women already know all this and they don't need to be told it again.

IWD just becomes a magnet for 'when's IMD?' That the 19th November in case you are interested.

So yes, if we want to talk about women on international womens day and what their life is like - take a look around at your colleagues and your mothers and sisters and wives and REALLY THINK about how you treat them differently. Because me lecturing you on the differences merely goes in one ear and out the other anyway.

Perhaps we can go around the room and ask everyone for every day examples of where they might have unwittingly treated male and female staff differently - and whether this is a good thing or a bad thing and how. Are there times where we should give more allowance? And if there are, is this a failing of women or actually a failing of men or just something unavoidable due to biology. If its due to biology then perhaps we should consider whether this benefits society as a whole in some way and whether we place enough value on it rather than taking it for granted that women should just suck it up.

Companies are focused on the costs of maternity leave and perhaps even female staff not working late as often as they are 'less committed'. We should turn this on its head and think about where women are of greater value. Women as a rule, are more loyal to companies, particularly ones that look after them well. They don't change jobs as often. This makes them often cheaper in terms of indirect recruitment costs and in terms of long term training costs for a company as a whole. But these benefits are rarely stressed because they are invisible and not measured in a format that is as easy to track.

How are women invisible? Well look at the height of this desk. Its made to male standardisation. That means it might be too high for the average woman. Look at the size of your phone. Its designed for men.

Instead of asking me to do a presentation on my personal life, perhaps we should do a speech on how the company uses the default of men as a template for everything and where this doesn't necessarily work for women or makes women somehow look worse than they are in reality. We should throw the question back to staff members to REALLY think about, and consider as a group, rather than singling out a woman into a difficult and potentially intrusive situation which is difficult to refuse."

Turn this on its head.

Didactylos · 24/02/2025 17:44

RedToothbrush got there before me

I would start with the personal reflection on the whole experience of being asked to do this, share your personal life in a way that no man would be asked, and a critique of the tokenistic and superficial IWD culture rather than meaningful changes and equality.
But my natural instinct is to be subversive

LittleRedRidingHoody · 24/02/2025 17:50

I kind of get the pros and cons.

However, 9 years ago I was working a shit minimum wage job in retail and read some of the 'corporate wankology' progress journeys senior managers made and shared internally. It really opened my eyes to different career paths and thinking outside the box, and pretty much gave me the kick up the backside I needed to start 😂 I never told anyone, but it was a big deal for me (and others as well I think)

I don't love all the focus on IWD and how much of a tick box exercise it's become, but I think anything that encourages women to be talking more openly about their experience and career pathways, especially in careers and industries that typically favour men, can only be a good thing.

RawBloomers · 24/02/2025 17:53

CreationNat1on · 24/02/2025 16:43

I'm senior in a small company and yes I pushed back on sharing personal details and said I would support from a professional perspective, they said they wanted personal contributions.

Thanks for the suggestions. All are v helpful.

Edited

Perhaps make your story about all the times you've been expected to bring the personal into work (care more, be kind, respond to flirting, stroke men's egos, share your personal story, etc.) and how that's damaging for women...

Push women to leave the personal at home and push back against expectations that they are required to provide more than professionalism.

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2025 17:54

Suggested reading: 'Invisible Women' by Caroline Criado-Perez or 'Let My People Go Surfing' by Yvon Chouinard (Chouinard set up the brand Patagonia - they've taken something of a unique approach to women in the workplace by looking at where women add value and they can reduce costs by recognising this. This includes onsite free childcare at their HQ. It's really interesting).

ChangementDuNom · 24/02/2025 17:54

Maybe say yes on the condition the company publishes its own comparative gender pay data.

mrshoho · 24/02/2025 18:10

I would also ask for clarification of how the information you choose to share is used and stored. I'm more aware (paranoid) about how the real words and data we provide will be used in the AI world. I sound like a fully fledged tinfoil hatter I know.

CreationNat1on · 24/02/2025 18:36

mrshoho · 24/02/2025 18:10

I would also ask for clarification of how the information you choose to share is used and stored. I'm more aware (paranoid) about how the real words and data we provide will be used in the AI world. I sound like a fully fledged tinfoil hatter I know.

No, you are correct. Most of our calls are recorded and a synopsis is autogenerated, therefore I m reluctant to share personal details.

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Francesgumm · 24/02/2025 19:59

Why have they assumed you identify as a woman? 😉 I’d probably be awkward and say I don’t feel it’s right as I identify as a man on a Wednesday , or a cabbage or something.
My company goes with the line that anyone who says they are a woman is one , we are all actively encouraged to self id in our personnel records from a whole list of various ‘genders’. So I’m a bit pissed off about it all (and old and grumpy and near retirement) .

CreationNat1on · 24/02/2025 20:12

We are heavily encouraged to use pronouns too 🙄🙄🙄.

I uncovered sexual, incestuous abuse followed by physical attacks and even the death of a young woman in my family history from a few generations back (discovered this in recent years) . I genuinely am triggered by forced sharing of "personal experiences". I won't be sharing that heavy family history, but any other shared personal experiences is just lip service to something very real and raw that has repercussions for generations.

It's a false support of gender parity. Pisses me off.

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NotBadConsidering · 24/02/2025 20:31

If you really don’t want to really participate just say “I am hugely concerned about the impact of men infiltrating women’s spaces, positions and awards, and the Sandie Peggie case is of huge significance me personally, with a family member who was also a victim of abuse, and to women in employment across the UK” and you can be guaranteed they won’t use it.