Thread for discussing how women can ask NHS for female HCPs

[OuterSpaceCadet]

As suggested on the Sandie Peggie thread, a separate space for discussion.

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/12/09/hospital-apologises-to-rape-victim-for-branding-her-request-for-same-sex-breast-screening-medic-as-transphobic/

Relevant article about another woman being shamed for needing boundaries.

Huge thanks for all the information so far about policies and research.

We really need a definitive statement in law that people are entitled to same sex (meaning natal sex) care in all medical settings. With of course some provision for emergencies and life threatening scenarios, but no scope for BS around claims of being "intersex" or "biologically female" due to sex being "nebulous". Somehow this has to be legislated and made absolutely clear. As so often, it's vulnerable disabled and elderly women who are most at risk.

Not only this we need reassertion of the principle we'll receive HONEST care.

I of course think patients should be able to request single sex care but for me the issue is more about honesty. And Upton would claim he WAS providing single sex care to women because he's 'female', because he's delusional and despite his male anatomy.

I'm actually ok with male doctors for some things (this is personal to me, other women would not be) but what I'm not ok with is a doctor who is forcing me to lie and lying to me. I'd rather a standard male HCP who is honest about his sex than a transwoman. For two reasons: firstly i find it offensive if a TW expects me to lie and pretend I think he's a woman when I don't, secondly many transwomen are autogynephiles and I'm not ok being an unconsenting participant in someone else's fetish. Particularly when receiving medical care, when the focus should be on me and where that TW is being paid to do a job, not have his fantasies fulfilled.

Really useful thread thank you

Sandie's case is going to have enormous impact across so many areas of the nhs

I seem to be very lucky in that my local gp are very clear about offering female chaperones, and they way they say it, I know they mean women.

The area that's not been mentioned much in association with this case is the care sector, especially for women and children. And especially for disabled women and children. Who suffer the highest rates of sexual abuse.

How can we guarantee single sex provision for our most vulnerable?

If Upton wins this there is no safeguarding in the nhs.

Thanks for starting this thread. Three years ago I was diagnosed with endometrial cancer and was treated for it. All the way through I have asked for female healthcare staff, which has been honoured on the whole, although I have had to repeat over and over and over again my experience of sexual assault to justify this. I live in an area with a very high Muslim population, so that could be a factor in the hospital being accommodating. There have been a couple of times I've turned up and there's been a man there, including when I can see it says very clearly on the appointment list female only, but appointments have been rearranged, although that has affected my treatment.

I think people just don't get it, it's not simply a preference, I feel like every bit of my body would just scream out at the prospect because of childhood trauma. It's a neurological thing not just a thinking thing. I've had such bad experiences with men who I was supposed to trust that I can't see how there is any way I could suspend my experience. I have refused cancer checks on the basis that there was only a man there to do it, and I felt he'd been patronising and condescending to me. I've had lots of counselling and I don't think this will ever change, because there are a lot of dodgy men out there, I would be lying to myself if I thought that all men were trustworthy. It makes me feel panicky just sitting on the safety of my sofa thinking about it, and I really worry about getting old and being in hospital and having no control over it.

If I was presented with a trans woman I think I would panic about whether to judge my own eyes, even though somebody was obviously a man, I would question this, and obviously as other people have said be worried about being called a bigot and refused treatment. I do wonder whether I would go ahead and then feel I'd been assaulted.

Hopefully, I am well and stay well, although it would be an issue in the future as I get older.

I find it quite difficult to talk about all this as the experience is pretty recent

I have written to my local trust asking to clarify the wording I would need to use to be seen by a same sex clinician.

I have pointed out that previously I believed asking for say "a female doctor" would be sufficient but following this employment tribunal it's clear that some doctors understand the word female in a different way to me.

I have offered the wording "of the class of humans whose bodies are designed around large gametes who agree that they are of the class of humans whose bodies are designed around large gametes" but have suggested this is more than a little clunky and have asked for them to clarify to me the words I would need.

I look forward to their response!

SierraSapphire I'm glad you've managed to get accommodated but it's terrible we have to state our trauma repeatedly to do so.

Actually, to be specific, it's humiliating and re-traumatising. And as you point out, dangerous when care is affected.

You touch on another really key thing for abuse survivors. So often sexual assault / abuse is at the hands of a person we're supposed to trust implicitly. A family member or a teacher for example. A male medical professional gaslighting his patients that he is female follows that same power dynamic and would be extremely triggering.

This scenario reminds me of my carefully made birth plan which was roundly ignored -- with hindsight for ease of the dept.
In the stress of the moment I felt more unable to speak up than if I hadn't made a plan.
The next times, I didn't make a plan and decided there'd be a discussion as we went along. Still hard to do but I wasn't going into the situation in the knowledge my wishes had been deemed not important/not necessary/not deliverable/impractical, or whatever. I felt I it put me on a more equal footing.

If a woman requests a female practitioner and a male shows up, it could make women feel in a weaker position for feeling able to speak up, her voice having already been ignored.

In the two situations I've had with men at sensitive medical appointment, at a gynae appointment other women had already set a precedent when their name was called by a male doctor to ask for a female. This was immediately respected. I heard the doctor joke in good humour that no one wanted him that day. The fact he'd accepted that women wanted to see a female with good humour made me feel I might have said yes to him on another occasion.

In the second scenario a male doctor was already in the room for an echocardiogram. He offered a female doc or a chaperone. I didn't feel either were necessary and it was one of the most positive and reassuring experiences I've had of a medical examination. It was something about the honesty in him acknowledging that I might have my own reasons for being uncomfortable or distressed at a name carrying out the procedure and making sure he really mitigated for that.

In a situation where there's a dishonesty from the start - a male claiming to be an actual woman, not acknowledging that in this situation his sex may be an important factor to me, then my gut instinct is going to be screaming that something is wrong.

A male medical professional gaslighting his patients that he is female follows that same power dynamic and would be extremely triggering.

And those of us who have experienced abuse are more likely to have had a negative response to stating the obvious when someone is lying to us, or not being believed. I often feel as though I'm lying and no one's going to believe me when I'm telling the truth.

Yes I know what you mean. That's where, for me, a chaperone doesn't necessarily mitigate the trauma response. It still depends on the behaviour of the male HCP.

If the male HCP is already gaslighting me, then the chaperone is playing the role of all the people who've already dismissed me or not believed me or suggested it was my fault.

Women who are already extra vulnerable (due to being chronically or acutely ill, survivors of abuse, or more than one of the above) just shouldn't be being put in the position of having to worry about how to choose the exact right wording in order to not offend and not be painted as a bigot! It is so unjust that this is something women have to fear when already in situations that are very scary and often already retraumatising for various reasons (eg invasive procedures that are essential for care).

On chaperones, I had an incident where the female gynaecologist caused pain during her examination and it turned out she'd actually caused further damage to a small graze I'd been unaware of, which then took weeks to heal.

The chaperone compounded the awful experience. I know she was attempting to be soothing but it felt more like being encouraged to quietly put up and shut up by an additional health professional. It didn't feel like she was there for me, it felt like she was there for the doctor.

Of course I'm not saying any woman should have to be afraid or doesn't have the same right to female care. Just that this thread crystallises my deep sense of the wrongness and injustice, as a disabled woman myself.

I think we need to recreate what I saw on Twitter - a sign which is laminated and placed at the bed space saying female only care.

what wording does it need?

”as per the EA 2010 I exercise my right to request for care to be provided only by females. This excludes anyone male who believes themselves to have a gender identity of female.”

could add a bit about including females who think they are males if you don’t mind a few scraggy chin hairs and squeaky voice. I wouldn’t, they are women to me

I recently have a gynie appointment. In the run up to it i had specified and seen female doctors, I forgot to ask for it to be on the referral. When I got there it was a male doctor (who I'm sure was lovely) and a female nurse. I just couldn't do it, I played it down and said everything was sorted. I'm sure they labeled me as a time waster but I didn't feel comfortable saying why I was refusing and felt it was my own fault for not stating earlier.

I'm a pretty strong woman who will advocate for myself. I will tell people I disagree. But put on the spot like that I just couldn't. I have no history of abuse, I'm not part of a religion that restricts who can see me. I've been topless on a beech on my slimmer days But while I can accept a woman examining me there I cannot a man.

You are vulnerable physically and mentally. There should have been signs saying you can request a female doctor to make it easier so that I could have still been examined. If that had been in place and I had asked and seen a transwoman is don't know what I would have done. I would be massively uncomfortable and doubting myself and I suspect I would have felt forced to go through with it.

It is not consent if you are afraid to say no.

I had a hospital appointment this morning and I noticed this sign in the waiting room. Although I thought I knew what it meant, I wasn't exactly sure what it meant, but I assumed that all staff on duty would be female + transwomen or male + transmen.

There was one female nurse (in a dress) and 4 male HCP's that didn't look trans (and very unlikely that all 4 would be).

I wasn't bothered about receiving single sex care because the procedure wasn't too intimate but as I was very confused by the claim that all staff on duty identify as the same gender, I decided to query it after the procedure was finished.
A male HCA came wandering through so I decided to ask him. He looked at it and said 'oh I think it's badly worded and just means that we treat everyone the same'. I replied no it clearly states that you are all identifying as the same gender. Him- must be a mistake, no trans here' and he took the sign away. I mentioned it to the female nurse when she came to remove my cannula and she didn't seem to have seen it, and she told me to mention it to reception. Reception didn't know what I was talking about either (or didn't want to get into the subject) and told me to go to the main reception.
There , I encountered another member of staff who looked at me rather blankly and suggested I fill in a feedback form.

I wrote as clearly as I could at the time because I was pretty tired and in pain, staring that the sign was confusing, the staff present didn't seem to be aware of it, I asked if they have a single sex care policy and how/if I could in future ask for single sex care without being a accused of transphobia.
I realised I'm rambling a bit now, but the whole thing was confusing. I was expecting to encounter a transperson (not that it would have mattered on this occasion) and there were just a mixed bunch of males and females, none of whom seemed aware of the sign in the first place- weird.

The organisation 'Caring About Dignity' has a helpful sample letter (with regards to SS care and consent/ legal requirements ) to send to NHS Trusts/ GPs when you need single sex care/ wards- to go on your notes.

You can also attach it to eg a Living Will (I had to do something similar for my grandmother) so medical staff know.

You may recall the solicitor who was told months ago she couldn't have SS care and it was in the press and raised by Baroness Nicholson. I think she helped write the draft.

Unfortunately I don't have permission to share the letter but the organisation's website is www,caringaboutdignity.org

and you can contact them via email from there. The website also has a section called 'useful things to know' mumsnetters may find helpful.
The link is:
www.caringaboutdignity.org/useful-information/

Shortly after leaving, I received a generic email. Kind of annoying because I wasn't complaining about the care. Just asking for clarification. Anyway, let's see if they reply

@XXylophonic That sign is shocking. If everyone ' id's as the same gender' if you could be faced with a male or female- which really matters in some circumstance where you need same sex care- and also implies all staff believe in gender woo- which many don't, and would make it a hostile environment for patients too who recognise reality. Thanks for speaking up.

there's a typo in my other post -should be
www.caringaboutdignity.org

@Chariothorses I completely agree. There clearly must be trans staff or it wouldn't have been there. It wasn't actually on a wall but in a table next to leaflets. The fact that none of the staff seemed aware of it was odd. I'm inclined to think that none of them wanted to get involved in a discussion about it or say the 'wrong' thing.
Additionally it was a cardiac outpatients clinic. Most of the people waiting were elderly. They probably wouldn't have a clue what the sign even means.
And the fact is, no way were they all identifying as the same gender so it was rather bizarre

Update: I had a reply from a caseworker in my MP's office saying they understand my concerns and they've raised them with the Department for Health and Social Care. They anticipate a response within 20 working days.

I wonder if there's a missing '...as they were assigned at birth'? Stupid sign regardless, just causes confusion. Well done for taking the trouble to query (queery?) it.

Hope you're feeling better soon.