Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Most documentaries about the grooming scandal are about dishonest reporting

80 replies

Justwrong68 · 05/01/2025 12:32

x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1875847368656167394?s=46

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/01/2025 20:45

We're all angry about it @PerkingFaintly

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/01/2025 20:47

I definitely remember a lot of stories about how white men actually make up almost all sexual assault perpetrators for example. If you read one article about Asian grooming gangs and ten articles about how the moral panic around Asian grooming gangs is problematic, with a side helping of several stories about rape gang liars...

Me too. And the idea that the Guardian was on the side of these girls is risible.

PerkingFaintly · 05/01/2025 20:47

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/01/2025 20:45

We're all angry about it @PerkingFaintly

We all are about the assaults on women and girls, yes!

You don't know what the "it" is I'm trying to write about now, though, so you might disagree. (Although actually I don't think it's contentious.)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/01/2025 20:48

Fair enough.

duc748 · 05/01/2025 21:02

If you read one article about Asian grooming gangs and ten articles about how the moral panic around Asian grooming gangs is problematic, with a side helping of several stories about rape gang liars...

...you're being gaslit by the Guardian. Nothing wrong with pointing out how the likes of Robinson would monetise the reports of the Pakistani gangs. You can still do that, but FFS tell the facts of the cases.

Adamante · 05/01/2025 21:24

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/01/2025 20:47

I definitely remember a lot of stories about how white men actually make up almost all sexual assault perpetrators for example. If you read one article about Asian grooming gangs and ten articles about how the moral panic around Asian grooming gangs is problematic, with a side helping of several stories about rape gang liars...

Me too. And the idea that the Guardian was on the side of these girls is risible.

This is STILL being said on threads right here on MN over the past few days. Beggars belief. Lofty assertions that all details were available as far back as 2004 onwards, which may be factually true but they were not reported with the outrage they should have been to attract attention, and if you were younger as many of us posting now were & didn't focus so much on current affairs or hadn't already an inkling this stuff was going on you wouldn't have known where to look. All these years, the main point I have ever seen made on MN was that this was a Far Right trope. So many women asserting this. Why? How did that happen? How did that become the main take away from these matters? It was purposely done. Reported very carefully and without splashes so that it would just fade away quickly.

PerkingFaintly · 05/01/2025 21:47

Uff, I don't think I'm up for much more this evening. The short short short version is, that I strongly agree @OneAmberFinch has it in a nutshell with:

"It all acts to muddy the waters and make people not want to look too closely."

Attempt at slightly longer version:
This is not a one-off trick, but one which we see repeated over and over in a way that compounds.

So using examples from this thread.

Some men exploit the existence of Ellie Williams' false rape accusations in order to get out themselves out of a rape accusation – in Ellie Williams' case she really was lying, but it can be used to muddy the waters.

Ellie Williams was exploiting the real rape of thousands of women and girls by Asian gangs for her own drama – other women and girls really have been raped, but she used it to muddy the waters.

Some Asian men have been exploiting the existence of racially-motivated false accusations of rape in order to deflect from their organised rape of women and girls – the racially motivated false accusations do exist (lynching isn't limited to the US, and there's a long and horrible history of assault and murder of "outgroup" people in the UK as in almost every country), but they use it to muddy the waters.

And so on down.

This exploitation of every round of abuse by opportunists for their own advantage makes it extremely difficult to sort wheat from chaff – despite it being exceptionally important to do so.

I have had conversations about this for years, as new rounds of abuse arise, and my experience is that each time a lot of people put sorting wheat from chaff in the "too hard" box. A different lot of people effectively say, "Ooh, this one works for me, I could join the exploiters' gravy train in this round."

I'm sorry, I'm really flagging so please excuse if I haven't expressed that well. I don't really have a summary, either, other than, "It's hard work, important, and we always need to keep our wits about us." Which everyone probably already knows.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/01/2025 21:48

Also some people think that posting a few online links "prove" the likes of the Guardian were covering this issue with proper journalism rather than agenda driven minimisation like they did with Cologne. Did this get into the main print paper? Which sections were these articles buried placed in? The Guardian publishes masses of online content. How prominent was this?

PerkingFaintly · 05/01/2025 21:48

I suppose the other summary could be: "several things can be true at once."

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/01/2025 21:49

X posted with you @PerkingFaintly I wasn't responding to your latest post.

OneAmberFinch · 05/01/2025 21:49

Adamante · 05/01/2025 21:24

This is STILL being said on threads right here on MN over the past few days. Beggars belief. Lofty assertions that all details were available as far back as 2004 onwards, which may be factually true but they were not reported with the outrage they should have been to attract attention, and if you were younger as many of us posting now were & didn't focus so much on current affairs or hadn't already an inkling this stuff was going on you wouldn't have known where to look. All these years, the main point I have ever seen made on MN was that this was a Far Right trope. So many women asserting this. Why? How did that happen? How did that become the main take away from these matters? It was purposely done. Reported very carefully and without splashes so that it would just fade away quickly.

Edited

Yes, exactly. I saw on X that one of the ringleaders was released last year after only serving 9 years of his sentence. I don't remember seeing that splashed anywhere! There have been new cases, some from 2019, some from 2 years ago - if this was really so widely reported with the shocking details then, even if I missed the 2013 Guardian articles, surely there would have been front page headlines with each new case?

Perhaps I should give the benefit of the doubt to people who've been following these cases in great detail for decades, as clearly they're more informed than I am. Sometimes it's hard to relate to people who are just hearing about a story for the first time, or who are just getting to grapple with it. I know I feel that way about a few friends who are just now learning about AGP trans women, for example. Although I would like to think I'm more encouraging...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/01/2025 21:52

Ellie Williams was exploiting the real rape of thousands of women and girls by Asian gangs for her own drama – other women and girls really have been raped, but she used it to muddy the waters.

One woman was a deliberate bad actor. It's disingenuous for media to pretend that was disproportionately significant. I'm sure you know how the very few women who lie about rape are used to paint a picture that we can't believe women because they lie about rape.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/01/2025 21:54

I'm sorry, I'm really flagging so please excuse if I haven't expressed that well. I don't really have a summary, either, other than, "It's hard work, important, and we always need to keep our wits about us." Which everyone probably already knows.

But yes, absolutely I agree with you there.

PerkingFaintly · 05/01/2025 21:58

So it can be simultaneously true that there can be organised gangs of Asian men raping women and children.

And it can be true that there has been since time immemorial a trope that "'out-group' sexually assault 'our' women", and this gets exploited to attack all of the 'out-group' as a lump.

The trope even extends into places where, eg immigrants position the locals as the 'out-group' – see E.M.Forster's "A Passage to India" , 1924.

PerkingFaintly · 05/01/2025 21:58

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/01/2025 21:52

Ellie Williams was exploiting the real rape of thousands of women and girls by Asian gangs for her own drama – other women and girls really have been raped, but she used it to muddy the waters.

One woman was a deliberate bad actor. It's disingenuous for media to pretend that was disproportionately significant. I'm sure you know how the very few women who lie about rape are used to paint a picture that we can't believe women because they lie about rape.

Yes, I agree with you completely.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/01/2025 22:03

PerkingFaintly · 05/01/2025 21:58

So it can be simultaneously true that there can be organised gangs of Asian men raping women and children.

And it can be true that there has been since time immemorial a trope that "'out-group' sexually assault 'our' women", and this gets exploited to attack all of the 'out-group' as a lump.

The trope even extends into places where, eg immigrants position the locals as the 'out-group' – see E.M.Forster's "A Passage to India" , 1924.

I agree with you too.

PerkingFaintly · 05/01/2025 22:03

Sorry, knackered, must rest now.

Shirk · 05/01/2025 22:23

PerkingFaintly · 05/01/2025 21:58

So it can be simultaneously true that there can be organised gangs of Asian men raping women and children.

And it can be true that there has been since time immemorial a trope that "'out-group' sexually assault 'our' women", and this gets exploited to attack all of the 'out-group' as a lump.

The trope even extends into places where, eg immigrants position the locals as the 'out-group' – see E.M.Forster's "A Passage to India" , 1924.

This is absolutely it. I think a lot of people really struggle with the idea that two similar things can both be true. Also the fact that there is a 'white British' norm of sexual assault (e.g. in relationships; in nightclubs) and that some men of South Asian origin might have a different norm of sexual assault.

People with limited experience of other cultures often don't understand that racism exists in all of them. This was ethnically targeted, which might be an import: in some South Asian countries, white women are seen as more promiscuous and available due to their perception of Western culture.

OneAmberFinch · 05/01/2025 22:48

https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1876019750108557556

An attempt to quantify my previous post: Matt Goodwin apparently looked up the number of articles published since 2011 on "grooming gangs" (there were none before that apparently) vs a number of other topics. Long thread but very interesting!

A selection:

Between 2011 and 2025 the Guardian had 113 articles on the grooming gang phenomenon compared to 3,325 for "Islamophobia"

What about the BBC? We can look at BBC News 24 and BBC Radio 4

There were 357 specific mentions of the "grooming gang" scandal in BBC News/Radio 4 transcripts

Meanwhile, there were 7,537 for "George Floyd", 3,219 for "Stephen Lawrence", 7,416 for "Black Lives Matter", and 2,259 for "Islamophobia"

Honestly, this tracks with my anecdotal feeling!

BonfireLady · 06/01/2025 06:50

Great thread. Some key points for me:

I'm commenting on the way the media worked very hard to create that link and therefore push down the issue, in much the same way they did with the documentaries referenced by OP. It all acts to muddy the waters and make people not want to look too closely.

If you read one article about Asian grooming gangs and ten articles about how the moral panic around Asian grooming gangs is problematic, with a side helping of several stories about rape gang liars...

"It's hard work, important, and we always need to keep our wits about us."

my experience is that each time a lot of people put sorting wheat from chaff in the "too hard" box. A different lot of people effectively say, "Ooh, this one works for me, I could join the exploiters' gravy train in this round."

I haven't followed the Asian grooming/rape gangs story closely enough over the years to have an opinion on coverage but what I'm seeing here is something that I only became aware of recently: if you implicitly trust the BBC and Guardian (which I did for many years, as do the majority of my family now) to give you the news, you'll end up with a skewed view of what happened, while feeling that you were informed. I'm basing this purely on my experience of how they have both covered the current medical scandal related to gender identity. Every now and again, both the BBC and Guardian will produce a great/adequate piece of journalism that cuts through to the detail. They'll be able to point back to these in years to come, to highlight their "balance". Almost more importantly, so will their supporters. This cloak of protection from supporters means they are unlikely to be held accountable for biased reporting.

On this thread, I'm seeing Perking and others saying pretty much the same thing but from different viewpoints.

What I worry about more is that my Guardian/BBC reading family (I mean fully extended family... uncles, aunties, cousins as well as my Dad and brother) and closest friends are representative of many other decent left/liberal people in society. I don't think any of them would ever want to believe that they could be let down by obfuscating, deflecting journalism on difficult subjects. I don't think any of them will assume I've gone "far right" - I'd like to hope they know me too well for that - but I reckon they'd all think me a bit of a mad conspiracy theorist if I cling on to the idea that we're being gaslit by the media on important subjects. I guess the BBC's involvement in the Savile scandal leaves a small possibility that they might not. I love my family and friends dearly but I want to thank the wonderful posters of MN for helping me prise my eyes open to other media, realise that I wasn't deflecting to the right by finding some Daily Mail articles to be very well written and learning how to feel more comfortable navigating difficult subjects. More importantly on the theme of this thread, for realising that there can be awful bias in my "trusted" sources.

It's so frustrating watching the Tommy Robinsons and Nigel Farages of this world getting to "own" the "sensible" narrative. Thank goodness for the presence of liberal voices like JKR. In the years to come, I think many people are going to wonder why they thought she was so "evil" and "unfair". Sadly, I don't think many of these same people will wonder too hard on that point - we'll no doubt see the same patterns repeating again and again.

Lastly, on the theme of the gangs themselves, I think many decent, everyday people find it far too emotionally painful to contemplate what has been happening at scale in the UK to these vulnerable girls, especially so when combined with the cultural/religious/racial aspect of it. JKR was spot on to say that they are rape gangs, not grooming gangs. If we focus on protecting ourselves from the difficult truth, we're more susceptible to being gaslit by this kind of media coverage.

Edited for typos

Listeningwithcare · 06/01/2025 07:18

I moved to the UK contemporarily to the reporting of some of those scandals, and initially I was following UK news in a vert cursory way. From the more recent reporting, I definitely had the impression of "older boyfriends giving presents" rather than torture (until I found the threads here!). Could it be that, recently, journalists tend to skirt around the darkest side of the grooming? Just adding an "outsider" point of view on where the problem with reporting might lie.

illinivich · 06/01/2025 09:52

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but is the accusation that most people knew what was going on a decade or more ago, and now have forgotten, or pretending to forget because they either want to buy into an anti islamic sentiment now or want to downplay the situation for the sake of community relations?

I dont know. Im willing to believe anything after the gender ideology stuff - people who knew what sex was in 2010 dont know now.

And i know the power of advertising and that newspapers and tv news are as much advertising as informative. It not just when and how many stories are published, its their placement, prominence, language used and what else is being reported.

But, similar to gender ideology, there can be a tipping point and personal experience can change attitudes. Im different now to what i was in my 20s without children. I know i could reread article from a decade ago and have a different reaction.

Politically, i think both labour and the conservatives have been weak on this, and have left a big space for others to talk about it. But that was a choice the big parties made.

ZoomerDinosaur · 06/01/2025 09:53

From the more recent reporting, I definitely had the impression of "older boyfriends giving presents" rather than torture (until I found the threads here!).

I was a young teenager in 2013. In those days we had the news on every evening at 6 (I can imagine pre-watershed news skimming some details, but I don't remember it pulling too many punches). I was a very fierce feminist at that age.

I can honestly say I had the same impression as you from the media reports, although I did remember reading about a court statement from a girl who was branded with a hairpin. I don't remember ever really linking it with the rest of the trials.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/01/2025 09:55

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but is the accusation that most people knew what was going on a decade or more ago, and now have forgotten, or pretending to forget because they either want to buy into an anti islamic sentiment now or want to downplay the situation for the sake of community relations?

That's what I'm getting.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/01/2025 09:57

I think as feminists we often spend a lot of time reading about horrific things that have happened to women and girls in a way most people don't. Of course it's fucking shocking to most decent people that men sexually tortured 11 year old girls.