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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woke friends

62 replies

shabanga · 14/12/2024 21:31

Name changed, regular poster.

I just need some advice. How do you guys handle friends captured by wokeness?

I have an old friend who I noticed kept quiet about woke issues whenever I mentioned them, which I optimistically hoped meant she agreed but was too afraid to say, because she works in academia.

However after our last meet up I feel like she is totally captured and I was unable to say anything due to the circumstances of that meet up (kids around). I feel so sad about it because I know she is a good person. I feel like she needs her eyes opening but I just don't know how to do it. I'm so terrible at directness and want to be gentle with her.

Any advice much appreciated.

OP posts:
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shabanga · 14/12/2024 21:32

Ugh grammar totally shit but I've had a few drinks Blush

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/12/2024 23:56

Suppose it depends on what aspect of "woke" - but if it's the usual TWAW mantra then if she's in academia, the consequences for her speaking the truth may be severe. How you work out whether it's fear or she really believes this stuff is the challenge.

If you've children then that would be my focus. If she's a parent, unless she's got a child captured by this, I'd use that as a way in. BUT - it depends on the relationship and there are countless threads on here with women talking about lost friendships over this issue. Maybe asking a few questions - as a parent what does she think of Wes Streeting banning the use of puberty blockers on children etc?

Enough4me · 14/12/2024 23:58

Is she bringing it up (TWAW or similar nonsense) or in some way running women down?

DoIEver · 15/12/2024 00:10

What do you mean by "woke"? Some people would consider posting on a women's rights / feminism forum as woke.

I feel like she needs her eyes opening but I just don't know how to do it.

She might feel the same way about you and your views. Would you be open to her trying to open your eyes or would you find it patronising?

Do you feel that you can't only be friends with people who you agree with?

Forester1 · 15/12/2024 10:19

It’s not your role to open her eyes if you want to remain friends. It sounds like she’s not forcing the issue so I’d just keep to other topics at this stage.

MarieDeGournay · 15/12/2024 10:43

This issue has cropped up a few times on here - there you are, getting along nicely with someone you like and then bang! they say something like TWAW, and you realise there's a gulf between you that you didn't know existed.
On a purely emotional level, it's difficult, as it may result in the loss of a friendship, and that's always sad.

To answer DoIEver's question about only being friends with people you agree with - it depends on the subject of disagreement. If they like coffee and I like tea, no problem. But some things are more fundamental and if there's a big mismatch, deep conversations are going to run aground on the jagged rocks of differing perception of basic reality.

So of course you can 'pal around with' someone with different opinions, as long as they are not really offensive, but a deeper friendship with someone who does not share the same basic values as you? Don't think so.

Sometimes you can be tootling along nicely in a friendship until an issue is brought into sharp focus by some contemporary event - a racist killing, an attack on a hotel housing migrants, a war somewhere in the world, a colleague's pronouns..
and suddenly there's that gulf between you.

I had that experience with a group of friends I had been close to for years, they completely shocked me one evening with a conversation full of racial stereotyping - not particularly negative, but mindless stereotypes about what different people are 'naturally' good or bad at. When I objected to what they were saying, I saw their attitude to me changing, as my attitude to them was, and we have been polite but not very friendly since.

It's very sad, but no, DoIEver, I couldn't be friends with them because on something very fundamental, I do not agree with them.

shabanga - I wouldn't tackle this head on, I'd have a couple more conversations, keeping it light, to see what the lie of the land is, and how much of a deal it is for you, and then proceed in whatever way feels best for you.

duc748 · 15/12/2024 12:36

Wise words, Marie.

TempestTost · 15/12/2024 12:36

I think it helps to understand how deep these ideas are in her mind.

Is she very committed to all of I'd politics? What made you realize that it was really so deeply felt? Or is it mainly about gender ideology?

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 15/12/2024 13:14

I agree with MarieDeGournay. When friends of mine became very woke I just couldn't look at them in same way, knowing what they really think. It does feel like there's a gulf between us now and it's one I cannot cross. How can I trust, let alone be friends with, someone who doesn't respect women's boundaries?

Happyinarcon · 15/12/2024 13:47

Just ignore it, the sands are shifting quickly enough

ChaChaChooey · 15/12/2024 14:01

DoIEver · 15/12/2024 00:10

What do you mean by "woke"? Some people would consider posting on a women's rights / feminism forum as woke.

I feel like she needs her eyes opening but I just don't know how to do it.

She might feel the same way about you and your views. Would you be open to her trying to open your eyes or would you find it patronising?

Do you feel that you can't only be friends with people who you agree with?

Edited

Woke = Progressive Authoritarianism.

HTH.

DoIEver · 15/12/2024 15:55

ChaChaChooey · 15/12/2024 14:01

Woke = Progressive Authoritarianism.

HTH.

Does it though? As I have seen many things described as woke, from feminism, to veganism to sandwich fillings

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14086091/gen-z-waging-war-sandwiches-ditching-classic-flavours.html

It has gone from a word used by American black people to describe the feeling of waking up to the way they are treated in society to a word promote outrage in a certain type of person.

Now Gen Z are waging war on our sandwiches!

Popular bread manufacturer Allinson's launched its Great British Sandwich Study to lift the lids on the nation's lunchboxes and reveal their changing tastes for the beloved snack.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14086091/gen-z-waging-war-sandwiches-ditching-classic-flavours.html

DoIEver · 15/12/2024 16:18

Sometimes you can be tootling along nicely in a friendship until an issue is brought into sharp focus by some contemporary event - a racist killing, an attack on a hotel housing migrants, a war somewhere in the world, a colleague's pronouns.

I know what you mean @MarieDeGournay but the OP has not said what it is yet. I also don't think that differing opinions on whether or not you should use a colleagues preferred pronouns is really on parr with supporting a racist killing. Do you really feel the same way about them?

ChaChaChooey · 15/12/2024 16:50

DoIEver · 15/12/2024 15:55

Does it though? As I have seen many things described as woke, from feminism, to veganism to sandwich fillings

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14086091/gen-z-waging-war-sandwiches-ditching-classic-flavours.html

It has gone from a word used by American black people to describe the feeling of waking up to the way they are treated in society to a word promote outrage in a certain type of person.

Yes.

Woke is Intersectionalism, Critical Race Theory, the Oppressed Stack, EDI, Transgenderism, IDPOL, Queer Theory, Applied PostModernism, Fat Acceptance, (self diagnosed) Disability Rights et al.

And yes, some sub groups of Feminists are definitely woke, however they are the ones who say anyone on Mumsnet is a cisheteronormative terf oppressor.

It’s all the same in that the proponents of it use HR training vehicles and cancel culture to prevent normies saying what they actually think, even when that thing is something that everyone agreed with about 5 years ago, eg ‘Men can’t get pregnant’.

Perhaps the OG ‘woke’ referred to being genuinely pro civil rights for all (or
maybe it was coined by a Black Supremicist, I don’t know, do you?) but it’s been appropriated by corporations, the tech industry, academia and millions of angry teenagers who want to feel superior to their parents and it’s the latter that we are pushing back against, not anti segregationists who were politically active decades before some of us were born.

Anyway, the whole thing will sort itself out eventually because many of the Oppressive Stack categories hold clashing positions (see the recent Footballers with Religious Beliefs refuse to wear promotional LGBTQIA2S++ clothing/accessories debacle.

I’d like it if the whole of society didn’t get burned to the ground in the process, personally.

DoIEver · 15/12/2024 17:21

I’d like it if the whole of society didn’t get burned to the ground in the process, personally.

I don't think raging against a big nebulous thing called woke is way to stop society being burned to the ground.

Woke is Intersectionalism, Critical Race Theory, the Oppressed Stack, EDI, Transgenderism, IDPOL, Queer Theory, Applied PostModernism, Fat Acceptance, (self diagnosed) Disability Rights et al

Many people lump basic rights for women in with this list which I am assuming you don't want to get rid off along with the above? There are people that believe that things like maternity leave are woke nonsense so in my opinion it is much safer for women to be clear in our language.

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2024 17:42

Slowly but surely.

My friends are probably best described as 'be kind'.

You drop in conversation the things that hit hardest. Sport. Safeguarding changing rooms. And work from there.

My friends include one who now has a trans identifying son and a BBC employee.

They quietly think it's bollocks in their own way even if they are still on board to a degree. You know they know.

And from there it unravels.

They know my situation. They know I'm not a dick.

Sparklybutold · 15/12/2024 18:23

This is a major issue I'm having with my DH at the moment. He says he understands my side, is 'on my side', yet gets angry when I talk about the issues. I find it confusing. In one breath he says he supports me but in another he says he cares about a minority group. We end up going around in circles. It does worry more. It makes me question why he defends it so much.

Sparklybutold · 15/12/2024 18:32

I talk about the importance of female only spaces, he then retorts how would you police this? I explain that you couldn't but at the heart of its language, policy etc is being pushed for it to be allowed so we legally can't even challenge it. I explain the type of TW who is spearheading this, the entitled aggressive, highly likely AGP, he just gets defensive. He then asks about midgendering a woman who looks butch, whilst it has happened, it's more probable that much more men have attempted to invade female only spaces. Then because I can't give him numbers, he won't accept it. I try and talk to him about the woman experience and the real risk that goes with that, he's slowly getting to understand this but it's an uphill battle. The other day he stated he wanted to go to a drag show, we ended up having a disagreement because I said no, explaining how I really wouldn't want to go to a show like that which would likely favour the TQ angle whilst taking the piss out of women. There's so much more, some terrible really, which I'm finding harder to overlook.

ChaChaChooey · 15/12/2024 18:35

DoIEver · 15/12/2024 17:21

I’d like it if the whole of society didn’t get burned to the ground in the process, personally.

I don't think raging against a big nebulous thing called woke is way to stop society being burned to the ground.

Woke is Intersectionalism, Critical Race Theory, the Oppressed Stack, EDI, Transgenderism, IDPOL, Queer Theory, Applied PostModernism, Fat Acceptance, (self diagnosed) Disability Rights et al

Many people lump basic rights for women in with this list which I am assuming you don't want to get rid off along with the above? There are people that believe that things like maternity leave are woke nonsense so in my opinion it is much safer for women to be clear in our language.

Edited

It’s not nebulous, it’s Progressive Authoritarianism, which is what I said to you originally.

Everyone’s rights are likely to be destroyed by authoritarianism, left or right.

DoIEver · 15/12/2024 19:01

ChaChaChooey · 15/12/2024 18:35

It’s not nebulous, it’s Progressive Authoritarianism, which is what I said to you originally.

Everyone’s rights are likely to be destroyed by authoritarianism, left or right.

You think it's Progressive Authoritarianism. Some think it is fancy sandwich fillings and others think it is things like maternity leave.

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2024 19:53

Sparklybutold · 15/12/2024 18:23

This is a major issue I'm having with my DH at the moment. He says he understands my side, is 'on my side', yet gets angry when I talk about the issues. I find it confusing. In one breath he says he supports me but in another he says he cares about a minority group. We end up going around in circles. It does worry more. It makes me question why he defends it so much.

He is desperate to 'be kind' and to be seen doing the right thing. This creates a paradox when you explain how what he's been taught is being kind isn't necessarily being kind.

This conflict point between thinking and unthinking creates a problem.

If you think and realise what you are saying is at odd with what you are taught by your social circle or established authority, you find yourself on the wrong side of this with social impact on you social status.

When Owen Jones talked about the 'wrong side of history' this is actually what he was talking about when assuming he had a social power greater than the opposition. It's about 'with us or against us' propaganda (This dynamic is a known technique).

Unfortunately propaganda has its limitations, and we have passed the tipping point.

There is a firm game of divide and conquer going on. There is the middle class and the works class against the elite class which hold the balance if power in a democracy. If you divide this you allow the elite through to dominate through authoritarianism.

ChaChaChooey · 15/12/2024 19:58

Progressive Authoritarianism has already tried to convince companies that the protective characteristic of pregnancy and maternity should be redefined to include men and not mention women or mothers at all:

www.thetimes.com/uk/article/dont-call-mothers-she-in-advice-on-maternity-stonewall-urges-oxford-qr59gwb8b

www.thetimes.com/uk/article/environment-agency-mother-and-father-gendered-stonewall-rg8x8wxkl

I suspect Progressive Authoritarianism really likes a woke sandwich tho, big business loves a bit of Rainbow Washing (or it did, it’s possible that Rainbow Washing is out now because Anti-Islamophobia/Palestine has taken over the top spot on the Woke Totem Pole.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/marks-and-spencer-lgbt-sandwich-charity-reaction-twitter-a8897631.html

If you pay attention to what Woke is (rather than dismissing it as ‘Nebulous’)
it becomes much easier to recognise actual Human Rights issues in amongst the stuff identifying as Human Rights issues.

Pregnancy and Maternity rights are necessary because maternal and neonate death rates are higher without it. Renaming it Gender neutral parenting leave would brush that stark fact under the carpet, which in turn would make it easier to justify ditching it/watering it down.

It’s not as if women can be forced out of work and into the home when the home won’t exist without two incomes to pay for it.

So left/progressive authoritarianism is potentially more dangerous to maternity rights than right/conservative authoritarianism right now.

StMarie4me · 15/12/2024 20:01

Do you have ANY clue what 'woke' means?

Look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary.

duc748 · 15/12/2024 20:15

StMarie4me · 15/12/2024 20:01

Do you have ANY clue what 'woke' means?

Look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary.

That's half the point. What woke means all depends on who you ask. To some, for example, it's effectively a slur, an attempt to paint a group in an unfavourable light. This is what the Mail does, for instance. Other words have suffered the same fate: liberal, hippie, even. But to many, woke represents a 'parcel of beliefs'. Most of that parcel used to be things like anti-racism which all decent folk could get behind. But in recent years, woke has been dominated by identity politics, pursued by interest groups that are anything but communitaire., the GI movement being the cherry on the top. My DS said to me the other day that he'd always regarded me as one of the most woke people he knew (until lately! 😀). He didn't mean that as an insult. But ATEOTD, it's laziness to take on board a whole 'parcel of beliefs'. Issues need judging on their merits.

Onlyvisiting · 15/12/2024 20:20

shabanga · 14/12/2024 21:31

Name changed, regular poster.

I just need some advice. How do you guys handle friends captured by wokeness?

I have an old friend who I noticed kept quiet about woke issues whenever I mentioned them, which I optimistically hoped meant she agreed but was too afraid to say, because she works in academia.

However after our last meet up I feel like she is totally captured and I was unable to say anything due to the circumstances of that meet up (kids around). I feel so sad about it because I know she is a good person. I feel like she needs her eyes opening but I just don't know how to do it. I'm so terrible at directness and want to be gentle with her.

Any advice much appreciated.

Perhaps you should consider that as an educated woman and a good person that if her views are opposed to yours that she isn't the one who needs her eyes opening.