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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Analysing Historical Mass Psychogenic Epidemics & Gender Dysphoria

61 replies

UtopiaPlanitia · 27/10/2024 22:18

Mia Hughes, of the WPATH Files report, recently posted a tweet regarding a lecture she gave at Stanford University. I thought I'd post the link here for those who are interested in watching the seminar:

https://x.com/_CryMiaRiver/status/1850196070485176720

'On Thursday, I gave a seminar at Stanford on my favourite subject: the epidemic of gender dysphoria in historical context. Using Ian Hacking's framework of the ecological niche of transient mental illnesses, I examine epidemics of fugue, hysteria, multiple personality and trans.'

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UtopiaPlanitia · 31/10/2024 23:37

Thanks for the link Miri.

Teenage girls are well known for developing group hysterias; I’ve read quite a few news magazine articles over the years detailing these types of behaviours happening in groups of teenage girls in a lot of different countries. One girl starts things off and then other girls join in when the first girl gains attention and notoriety/special treatment. Things generally fizzle out by themselves but they can end up with young girls being put through extensive medical testing for no genuine reason and it causes massive disruption and stress to parents and the rest of the community.

At my secondary school we had a minor fainting epidemic caused by one girl who like to faint loudly and dramatically - she disrupted unpopular lessons and a few other girls started doing it as well. It fizzled out pretty quickly, thank god - I think throwing yourself on the floor and dragging a table’s worth of school equipment and a heavy wooden stool on top of you is not for the faint of heart plus the teachers didn’t coddle any fainters so there really wasn’t much of a benefit to doing it.

I have to admit, whenever I watch The Crucible it always reminds me of stories like these about teenage girls.

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POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 01/11/2024 14:01

Thankfully for our understanding of human nature, Milgram's experiments do not show quite what he claimed.

Behind the Shock Machine
The Untold Story of the Notorious Milgram Psychology Experiments
Gina Perry 2013
The true story—and revealing legacy—of the controversial experiments on obedience to authority figures, based on previously unpublished material.
https://thenewpress.com/books/behind-shock-machine

"“There may be no studies of the twentieth century more haunting—or more revealing of human beings at their best and worst—than Stanley Milgram’s work. And here, finally, is a book that illuminates Milgram and his research subjects in riveting, compassionate detail.” —Deborah Blum, author of Love at Goon Park

When social psychologist Stanley Milgram invited volunteers to take part in an experiment at Yale in the summer of 1961, none of the participants could have foreseen the worldwide sensation the results would cause. Milgram reported that fully 65 percent of the volunteers had repeatedly administered electric shocks of increasing strength to a man they believed to be in severe pain, even suffering from a life-threatening heart condition, simply because an authority figure had told them to do so. Such behavior was linked to atrocities committed by ordinary people under the Nazi regime and immediately gripped the public imagination. The experiments remain a source of controversy and fascination more than fifty years later.

In Behind the Shock Machine, author and psychologist Gina Perry unearths for the first time the full story of these flawed experiments and their startling, long-lasting repercussions. Interviewing the original participants—many of whom remain haunted to this day about what they did—and delving deep into Milgram’s personal archive, she pieces together a more complex and much more troubling picture of these experiments than was originally presented by Milgram. Uncovering the details of the experiments leads her to question the validity of that 65 percent statistic and the claims that it revealed something essential about human nature. Fleshed out with dramatic transcripts of the tests, the book puts a human face on the unwitting people who confronted the moral test of the shock machine and offers a gripping, unforgettable tale of one man’s ambition and an experiment that defined a generation."

Social psychology textbooks ignore all modern criticisms of Milgram’s "obedience experiments"
The usual, disturbing interpretation is that Milgram showed how readily most people will harm others if they are told to do so by authority.
BPS Journal - 13 October 2015
https://www.bps.org.uk/research-digest/social-psychology-textbooks-ignore-all-modern-criticisms-milgrams-obedience

Why (almost) everything you know about Milgram is wrong
Ella Rhodes reports from a Stephen Reicher keynote at the Society's Annual Conference in Nottingham.
BPS Journal - 15 May 2018
https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/why-almost-everything-you-know-about-milgram-wrong

"Standing in front of a keen psychology audience, Stephen Reicher (University of St Andrews) said he felt like he was at a primary school to tell children why Santa wasn't real. But, in fact, his and Alexander Haslam's extensive research on the 60s researcher Stanley Milgram has only made the man, and his electric shock box, ever-more interesting.

Milgram's 1961 experiments into obedience set out to answer a question that we've been asking for centuries – what makes normal individuals do monstrous things? Milgram's participants were told the experiments were a study of punishment and its effects on learning – they acted as 'teachers' giving electric shocks to 'learners' when they misremembered the second word from a list of word pairs.

Participants were in a separate room to the learners – who, in reality, were confederates of Milgram and received no shocks – but could overhear their shouts of pain as the shocks increased in power. These sessions were overseen by a white-coated experimenter who would coax any struggling participants to continue with the experiment.

Prior to this work Milgram asked colleagues how many people would give a shock of 300 volts or more, and many said only true psychopaths would do so. But in his first baseline study of 40 people, 26 went all the way to 450 volts and beyond – in other words two out of three people would kill someone for making an error in a learning experiment.

From this work Milgram developed a theory that, during obedience, people adopt an agentic state seeing themselves as instruments to carry out the will of another and feel little or no responsibility for their actions. However – and it's a rather big however – there are some key elements from Milgram's studies which undermine the theories he developed from them.

First, while his baseline study would back up the agentic state theory he actually did around 30 studies and obedience varied between 0 and 100 per cent… overall 58 per cent of people actually disobeyed the pushy experimenter. How can we understand this variability, Reicher asked, if the agentic state is true?

Second, when we consider the goings-on during the actual experiment and look at the experimenter's four prods to encourage participants to continue, they reveal that people really do not like following orders. The four prods used were: 'please continue', 'the experiment requires you to continue', 'It's essential you continue' and 'you have no other choice – you must go on'. Reicher pointed out that only the final one of these phrases is a direct order, and in fact none of Milgram's participants continued with the study after hearing this order. As Reicher said – Milgram's own research here is emphatically not showing that people have a tendency to obey orders.

Finally, Milgram's work did not account for the role of participants hearing the learner's voice shouting in pain. While agentic state theory would suggest we are bound into the voice of the experimenter, deferentially following orders, this is not revealed in Milgram's own archived materials – Reicher and Haslam found 40 per cent of participants dropped out when the learner spoke for the first time and mentioned the pain he was in.

All of this flies in the face of the overriding narrative Milgram established after his experiments of obedient people in agentic states blindly following orders. While his findings are in no way artificial, Reicher said, he could have reached the conclusion that people aren't programmed to take orders but rather make choices over which 'voice' to listen to in a given situation, which can vary depending on an individual's relative identification.

Find much more about Milgram and his studies in our archive, including this from Reicher and Haslam, and an exploration of rhetoric and resistance in the studies.

--

Note that Ella Rhodes does not report Stephen Reicher giving credit to Gina Perry's 2013 book. I do not know whether this is true or not but the blurb for her book does say, "In Behind the Shock Machine, author and psychologist Gina Perry unearths for the first time the full story of these flawed experiments and their startling, long-lasting repercussions."

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 01/11/2024 14:13

Thanks to the OP and PPs for links to Mia's talks - I ams looking forward to watching them!

This is another very good one:

2010 lecture by Paul McHugh (who closed the transsexual clinic at John Hopkins) ends his timeline with the fad for "Multiple Personality Disorders" (Dissociative Identity Syndrome). Now we know what came next:

"Abuses of the Public by Psychiatry"
(should starts where McHugh begins his presentation, omitting lengthy introduction)

UtopiaPlanitia · 01/11/2024 14:20

Thanks for that additional information @POWNewcastleEastWallsend and the video link.

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PriOn1 · 02/11/2024 14:11

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 01/11/2024 14:13

Thanks to the OP and PPs for links to Mia's talks - I ams looking forward to watching them!

This is another very good one:

2010 lecture by Paul McHugh (who closed the transsexual clinic at John Hopkins) ends his timeline with the fad for "Multiple Personality Disorders" (Dissociative Identity Syndrome). Now we know what came next:

"Abuses of the Public by Psychiatry"
(should starts where McHugh begins his presentation, omitting lengthy introduction)

Edited

I’m fascinated by the fact that he says the emerging version of MPD flew in the face of everything that had gone before in psychiatry.

I’ve heard the same words used about the change from psychiatrists never agreeing with patients with false beliefs or delusions to them affirming the false beliefs of those who feel they are the opposite sex.

UtopiaPlanitia · 02/11/2024 14:18

Doctors have gone so far in affirming delusions that they will now accept consent to ‘gender affirming’ surgery and hormones from one of the opposite sex ‘alters’ in patients that believe they have multiple personalities. Apart from being ethically dubious, this is feckin bonkers behaviour. I see this discussed on Reddit and I think it was discussed in the WPATH files too.

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UtopiaPlanitia · 02/11/2024 22:19

Recent tweet by Mia Hughes discussing another lecture she gave on the subject of incorrect diagnosis in gender medicine:

https://x.com/_CryMiaRiver/status/1852818186208514495

'Researchers in the 1950s turned their attention to feminine boys because a bunch of autogynephilic men made up stories of childhood femininity as a way to get hormones and surgeries.

However, in their hunt for "transsexual children," all the researchers found were future homosexuals.

But the concept of the trans child was already in place, and the stage was set for a new form of conversion therapy, one that would ironically be celebrated by well-meaning liberals and championed by groups that once fought for gay rights.'

s

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andIsaid · 24/11/2024 01:50

Nothingeverything · 31/10/2024 18:55

I used to work in a psychiatric hospital and it was common knowledge that if a mental health disorder was prominently featured on say, Eastenders, we would soon have patients absolutely convinced they had it. So yes, humans are very suggestible!

It is interesting, isn't.

I wonder if it is all humans or if it hits certain types of people, or ordinary people in extraordinary times, materially or emotionally.

As a teen, when trying to find myself, I would worry that I could be this or that, picked up from a headline, overheard in conversation and so on.

In so doing I had many secret fears and worries.

Gradually each one was exposed for what it was and 17/18 I was more formed and had found some humour!

HoppityBun · 24/11/2024 14:39

Gagagardener · 27/10/2024 23:37

I have done Mia Hughes an injustice. This is an aplogy. Her talk IS scripted.

Mia has a light, pleasant speaking voice, but scarcely sounds as though she believes in her right to use it. If I were her mentor, I would advise her to avoid ending statements with a rising inflection - or beginning them with the phatic 'so'. Both undermine the authority of her important message.

(I wrote my first post after dipping into comments towards the end from those attending the seminar, and it was the delivery of these that set my teeth on edge.)

Edited for clarity.

Edited

If she’s starting many paragraphs with a “so” it’s unlikely she’s reading from a script and what you’ve read must be a transcript of what she said I.e. created automatically post hoc. The high rising terminal is an unfortunate modern tic, probably caused in this case by nerves and lack of practise

Tinysoxxx · 24/11/2024 15:31

The problem with all this is doctors look at teenage girls and think anxiety/social contagion/hysteria when it can be a neurological disorder or endocrine disorder. If a middle age man goes to the doctor they sit up and take notice. A girl however is dismissed. Several doctors thought Dd was ‘just anxious’ when she was actually having seizures. It was very stressful for her to be not believed by professionals, and dangerous.

UtopiaPlanitia · 24/11/2024 17:29

Tinysoxxx · 24/11/2024 15:31

The problem with all this is doctors look at teenage girls and think anxiety/social contagion/hysteria when it can be a neurological disorder or endocrine disorder. If a middle age man goes to the doctor they sit up and take notice. A girl however is dismissed. Several doctors thought Dd was ‘just anxious’ when she was actually having seizures. It was very stressful for her to be not believed by professionals, and dangerous.

As Helen Joyce pointed out in her recent interview with Andrew Gold, throughout history doctors have attributed women’s ill health to various form of hysteria (linked to their female reproductive organs) rather than take women seriously. Modern society is not as enlightened as it likes to think when it comes to women and their health.

I went through life being told that various symptoms I experienced were just part of menstruation (they were not) and now I’m being told that various other symptoms are just part of perimenopause (I’m not convinced they are). Lack of decent research into women’s bodies combined with sexism allows doctors to wipe their hands of female patients by attributing inconvenient symptoms to our reproductive organs.

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