"There is a clear rationale for mixed sex PE lessons"

[BonfireLady]

Apparently.

If a school were to hypothetically respond with this ridiculous statement when a request is sent to them to reintroduce single-sex PE lessons, are there any websites or documents that posters on this board would recommend to dispute it? Ideally from sporting bodies or other official sources.

It doesn't matter either way whether the information is about gender identity or not. The question relates to single sex sport, regardless of whether students have a gender identity that differs from their sex or not.

I'd like to know what this 'rationale' is that they're referring to.

You could do worse than the UN report:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/thematic-reports/a79325-report-special-rapporteur-violence-against-women-and-girls-its

Lots and lots of references within it, too.

I'd like to know what this 'rationale' is that they're referring to.

Indeed. If any teachers are aware of any "clear rationale" that has been shared within education please could you share it? I'm stumped!

Thank for the info above @HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott I'll take a look at the links within it.

Could you first of all ask them to expatiate on what the "clear rationale" is?
We always put ourselves on the back foot by not insisting that the other side clarify what they mean.

About sex-based differences before puberty...
https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/are-there-sex-based-differences-in
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsc.12075
https://x.com/sharrond62/status/1620808961367629828
https://x.com/sharrond62/status/1620501818777411584

Website comparing boys' athletic achievement to adult women's
https://boysvswomen.com/#/

I'll see if I can find more.

If you ask them for a clear rationale, it will help you explain why the arguments in favour of mixed sex don’t outweigh the arguments against.

Oddly enough some girls at the school I work at were talking about mixed PE lessons today. They would hate it because -

Boys are too aggressive.

Boys tend to be sent to sports lessons from a younger age so they won't share the ball (the example they used was football) so girls don't get a chance to play.

Girls would get hurt - one girl talked about having her nose broken in primary when she was playing in goal and a boy kicked the ball hard at her face.

They don't want to have mixed lessons, they wouldn't feel comfortable in them.

I think the last point is most important. Girls are saying no, so back off.

The only rationale I can think of is cost, it would mean people groups could be run with 1 teacher and an lsa/ta.

I suppose it depends on what's happening in the PE lesson. If they're being taught to play a contact sport and the children are secondary age there is an obvious safety risk to the girls. If they are doing a keep fit or yoga class or being shown athletics skills like how to throw a javelin, one at a time, or how to dribble a football, i.e. nothing competitive going on and no contact, maybe it's OK. But surely not all PE lessons would be like this? Team sports are still a big part of school PE, aren't they?

PE lessons in primary, particularly infants are often mixed sex.

This is because at this age there are no substantial physical differences between the children.

Different sports have different ages where they recommend splitting into single sex groups. The FA have advice on this, as do the rugby association.

Thanks all. Lots of useful info.

PE lessons in primary, particularly infants are often mixed sex.

Realised I should have clarified that the question referred to secondary school age.

It's not the case that there are no substantial physical differences between pre-pubescent boys and girls. Boys are bigger on average, stronger on average and more aggressive. They outperform girls on a range of athletic measures, with the exception of balance and flexibility. The differences are significant but not overwhelmingly so as with post-pubescent children and of course adult women and men.
There may be practical reasons for having mixed sex sport to do with staffing or other resources, or an overriding ethos that the kids are just trying to have fun, but where possible girls should be able to be taught on their own so that they can excel and (for some of them) not be intimidated.

Gah! Now she tells us! 😁Although, in fairness, I can't see anything in your original post that mentions primary school age. And I should have guessed you meant secondary school because of your DD! So, my bad...
Anyway, I think those websites are still useful because if there is a difference before puberty, it must be greater after it.

I'll see if I have anything else directly related to secondary school pupils.

Profuse apologies for the misdirection! However, like you say, there are still differences in primary school and it's good to have this as a foundational point.

I'm assuming there would be a reasonable rationale for mixed sex PE lessons (including contact sports) in primary school but for competitive games to have a balance of sexes (team sports) or results recorded by sex (individual sports) because the differences are less likely to impact safety. But in secondary schools, it's also about safety. That's where post-pubescent differences really come to the fore.

About MCW but talks clearly about male advantage:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

World Rugby did a deep dive into sex differences and this is referenced here:
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/guidelines/transgender/women
They concluded the differences were so pronounced that it was unsafe for women and men to play rugby together.

Fair Play for Women comments on the 2021 guidance of the SCEG, (UK Sports Councils) which concludes after a long and thorough study that fairness and in some cases safety for women is not compatible with the inclusion of men in women's sport.
https://fairplayforwomen.com/new-guidelines-for-transgender-participation-in-sport-in-the-uk/

I prefer mixed sex PE lessons where boys and girls are taught the same things, BUT are not pitted against each other competitively. You can have PE that isn’t competitive.

Why? Because as a girl in single sex PE lessons I would be jealous of the boys playing the fun sports like having a climbing wall and going running (not a race) or playing football while I was stuck learning how to dance with a fecking ribbon on a stick or doing gymnastics and being egged on to do splits 🫣 or falling off the balance beam and breaking my wrist, or being forced to do Jane Fonda aerobics to music.

Well I'm 20 and I certainly wouldn't have wanted (& wouldn't now want) mixed sex PE lessons. Boys are far too "forceful" (probably a better word than "strong").

I’m in my fifties. I guess my memory of girls and boys being seperate, was we were separate but NOT equal. The classes seemed to be more about training us to be sexy cheerleaders than teaching us physical fitness. (I went to high school in the US).

So that would be my concern about seperation - that things would quickly get locked into social stereotypes of feminine sports vs masculine sports.

DD1 loves PE because she is at secondary now and it is only girls. It's the only lesson not disrupted 😥

DD2 hated hockey this term at junior school because the boys would never pass to her.

Sex differences aside I'd say there is a clear rationale to keep them separate because schools appear to be unable to compel boys to actually behave themselves and treat girls as equal.

It sounds like this is about the type of sports on offer, rather than it specifically being mixed lessons. Is that right?

I also remember having different choices on offer for different sexes. There's no need to do this at all but it shouldn't have to mean mixed sex lessons by default. If it's a teacher skills issue, they could rotate the lessons so that girls and boys each do climbing and ribbon twirling on separate weeks.... if such lessons were needed. I'm assuming climbing would be more popular all round TBH.

In the UK traditionally boys and girls have been taught separately and there are differences in what sports they usually do - but girls do do proper sports.

They don't usually play cricket/football/rugby but the alternatives are rounders/hockey/lacrosse. Not waving a ribbon about. At my school both boys and girls did the same athletics evens athletics and tennis, but separately.

The only difference - which I did resent deeply - was that boys got to do trampolining, which we didn't. That was school-specific, though; at.my previous school everyone got a turn on the trampoline.

Sort of, we had no choice in the matter. If you’re a girl- you’re learning dance, gymnastics and doing aerobics. I couldn’t choose to join the boys or do the sports that were offered to them.

I agree it doesn’t have to mean mixed sex PE lessons, but I think that say you’re teaching swimming strokes, or how to do long distance running, or climbing on a climbing wall there is no reason to have boys and girls separated for these types of non competitive lessons.

It’s just a concern that by mandating all PE lessons must be separate, there is risk of regression to what I experienced.

Well I certainly wasn't trained to be a sexy cheerleader (tho some of the boys thought I was one!). I think we were largely doing the same sports & games as the boys, but with less violent tendencies in the gym. Unfortunately mixing boys and girls always results in the boys dominating, or worse, TRYING to dominate. And with P.E., they're likely to succeed because of their physical strength.

Yes! You see I had the same resentment over and over. I guess no matter how PE lessons are done, it it’s important to me that girls get the same opportunities as boys.

There are two different issues - which sports or activities girls are offered and whether they are taught together with boys.
Girls often choose dance or gymnastics over football, but they should have the choice. Just as boys should be able to do dance or gymnastics if they want to.

What is fun to do is subjective and context-dependent.

Always? Even when not competing against girls?

Yes, and the thing is if the school can only teach 1 girls PE class and 1 boys PE class, then the risk is that the girls class will always be what “most” girls choose, as society still pushes girls towards feminine sports imho. So that isn’t going to solve the issue of some girls stuck doing sports they didn’t choose while watching boys getting to do that sport.