BBC on surrogacy legislation in Italy

[HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66860266

'... the Italian senate is set to approve a bill that would make surrogacy a "universal crime" - one so serious that it would be prosecuted even if committed abroad, like human trafficking or paedophilia. '

The BBC article presents this as purely a LGBT issue, which makes it somewhat odd to read.The article also includes discussion of a separate legal issue - as far as I can tell, to do with birth certificates and same-sex parents, although there is scant detail on this part.

'Artificial insemination or adoption are not options for LGBT couples here, so for many, surrogacy abroad is the only way to have a family.

The practice has been at the centre of a fractious political debate.
Meloni has described it as "a symbol of an abominable society that confuses desire with rights and replaces God with money".
And Deputy Prime Minister Matteo Salvini compared surrogacy to using a cash dispenser: "An ATM-woman… that produces babies... is an aberration," he said.
"I will fight this barbarous and inhumane practice - just the thought of it makes me sick."'

Responses from the government:

'Carolina Varchi, the Brothers of Italy MP who drafted the bill, vehemently rejects that. "Most people who use surrogacy are heterosexual," she says.
Experts have told the BBC that 90% of the couples who use surrogacy in Italy are straight, and many of them hide the fact that they have gone abroad to have a baby.
But same-sex families returning to Italy with a child will not be able to hide.
Ms Varchi strongly believes the new law will "protect women and their dignity".
"It's intolerable. Women's bodies are reduced to objects that are rented for nine months to bring a child into the world, who is then ripped away to be delivered to the clients."
Ms Varchi adds: "We are not discriminating against children. This bill only targets the parents who commission a baby."
She told the BBC that surrogacy should be seen as a crime as serious as paedophilia, and prosecuted as such. However she suggested that most people would receive a fine, rather than face prison.'

If anyone has any further info on what's happening in Italy wrt surrogacy that would be great to hear.

Bravo Italy. This is a move I welcome wholeheartedly. As a Catholic yes but more importantly as a woman.

I'm glad that they've taken this position. It's interesting as someone who identifies as centre left politically to find myself aligned with the 'right' on a number of issues. I'm horrified at the capitalist exploitation of women's bodies by surrogacy and the fact that anyone can buy a baby for the price of a nice car.

I should add that I don't agree with Meloni that parents should only be heterosexual married couples.

OP I have seen evidence (sorry, source confidential so not giving more details) that the ban has caused panic among SMs in USA who are part way through a pregnancy for Italian commissioning parents. No idea what will happen in these cases. But one case of a recently delivered SM the CPs were lawyers and in expectation of the ban the commissioning mother has worn a fake belly throughout the pregnancy as well as being large amounts of cash to the USA to cover costs (presumably without leaving a banking trail).

The article is a year old and there was a thread on it at the time.

Would you like a more recent article?
Here you are:

www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62rmv63069o

Well done Italy, and I also say this as a traditional Catholic who is opposed to the commodification of women and children. I wish more countries did the same.

I have no issue with the Italian approach to surrogacy. There are a couple of issues mixed up in this article, as the PP points out.

However, if you read down the article to this bit, there's more than 'scant detail' about the erasure of hard-won lesbian rights:

In the northern city of Padova things have taken a more drastic turn. A state prosecutor has demanded the cancellation of 33 birth certificates of children born to lesbian couples dating back to 2017. All non-biological mothers will be removed and they will lose their rights over their children.

As usual, the term LBGTI is ignoring the L. Gay male couples may 'need' surrogacy to have a baby, but lesbian couples do not.
There's no question here of 'buying a baby' or 'ripping the baby away from its mother' - these are babies born to the mother who conceived and carried them and gave birth to them. They are not the result of surrogacy. They have not one but two mothers, who are bringing up their children the context of a committed family relationship.

I was surprised to read, on a different thread, opposition to the very idea of lesbian couples having children in 2024! - that legal battle was won years ago.

Erasure of lesbian rights is one of the features of transgender ideology, but it seems to have crept in under the cover of anti-surrogacy laws in Italy, so we have to be careful of 'mission creep' beyond opposition to surrogacy turning into another threat to the rights of the 'L' in LGBTQ++

"Experts told the BBC that 90% of the couples who use surrogacy in Italy are straight, and many of them hide the fact that they have gone abroad to have a baby. But same-sex families returning to Italy with a child cannot hide in the same way."

As per my previous post.

'same-sex families returning to Italy with a child'
By same-sex, the BBC means gay male.

Italian lesbian couples don't have to go anywhere to have a child - well maybe a romantic holiday on the Amalfi coast or something
but they don't have to leave home to have a child.
The specifics of the 'L' in LGBTQ++ is erased in this article.

“these are babies born to the mother who conceived and carried them and gave birth to them. They are not the result of surrogacy. They have not one but two mothers”

This is not true. The baby (or the person they will become) does not have two mothers. They have a mother and a father. They have a right to know the identity of the father and their genetic heritage. The mother(s) do not have the right to deprive them of this.

People who push this narrative are placing their desire to have their own child - above the needs of the person who results from that. It is like adoptive parents of old. The needs of the adoptive parents were placed above those of the adopted person and all available evidence suggests that was damaging to the mental health of the adoptee. That is why closed adoptions are no longer the norm.

Argh, apologies. I didn't see the date! I suppose it was posted in light of the recent law:

'The law passed by 84 votes to 58 in Italy's senate on Wednesday.'

Thanks, FannyCann for extra info and more recent article.

'Italy, Spain, France and Germany are among the European countries which outlaw all forms of surrogacy.'

Interesting - I'd like to see the UK follow suit.

It's why we need to read articles like this, which are heavily slanted with political bias and reported through a certain lens, very carefullly, to get to the actual crux of what's happened. Which is:

'Italy has made it illegal for couples to go abroad to have a baby through surrogacy.'

It looks to me as if lesbian mothers are being used as a front for the rights of males to buy babies.

There's a valid argument about non biological parents being named on a child's birth certificate vs parental agreements/court orders etc.
There's been several threads about this and a child's rights to an accurate birth certificate that lists their biological parents

'Italy, Spain, France and Germany are among the European countries which outlaw all forms of surrogacy.'

Interesting - I'd like to see the UK follow suit.

Yes, me too. All surrogacy should be outlawed.

Italy has made it illegal for couples to go abroad to have a baby through surrogacy.'

Going to another country to procure a child by surrogacy is the very definition of child trafficking, well done to Italy for making this abhorrent practice illegal.

I was listening to a podcast while shopping in Sainsbury’s so I was concentrating on the food and not the source hence can’t tell you which podcast, but the gay Italian man against this law was saying that it’s appalling women who carry these pregnancies are called rented wombs in Italian ‘as of course they have rights!’. I find it appalling that this term is allowed and common!

This is such a good description Deputy Prime Minister Matteo Salvini compared surrogacy to using a cash dispenser: "An ATM-woman… that produces babies... is an aberration," he said.
"I will fight this barbarous and inhumane practice - just the thought of it makes me sick."'
But less of an ATM, more a vending machine.
The more money you have = the more you get!

I also agree with a PP, I’m finding myself in line with this hard-right party move! They also are completely against accepting the trans debate as it is played out in Canada and most of the US.

They have a right to know the identity of the father and their genetic heritage. The mother(s) do not have the right to deprive them of this

So you are OK with lesbian families as long as the identify of the biological father and his genetic heritage are known to 'the person who results', aka 'children'?

Well that's good news.

And more good news is that research shows that the mental health damage caused by flawed adoption practices does not occur in the children of lesbian mothers, they do not have similar negative outcomes.
One obvious reason for the better outcome is that they are not separated from their mother, unlike in adoption or surrogacy.

There's an article in Unherd that claims this tweak in the law is 'a bad thing'. The top comment though

Meloni hasn’t banned surrogacy in Italy. It was already illegal. The article dodges accurately explaining what has been banned. Instead it burys the facts in a hyperlink.
Meloni has made it illegal to seek surrogacy abroad, which was a loophole in the existing ban. A loophole largely created by the advent of the modern internet, which isn’t the best way for public policy to evolve.
There is a debate to be had about whether the existing ban on surrogacy is sensible. But the article doesn’t debate that. It is narrowly focused on closing a loophole and deploys arguments based on the false impression that surrogacy was already legal.
Instead of surrogacy, Italy uses legal adoption to manage the “transfer” of parenting between consenting adults. While not as flexible as surrogacy, in terms of LGB parental genetics, it isn’t different: one of you is the genetic parent, one of you isn’t. If you are Italian and want someone else to have a child for you and they agree, you can do this and you can adopt the child. This has been the case for ordinary Italians.
One major difference between surrogacy and adoption is in surrogacy the emotional needs of the birthing mother play second fiddle. There is increasing evidence of international coercion exploiting women outside of Europe’s legal reach. With adoption there is a robust legal and post-partum healthcare framework for birthing mothers, the intentions and homemaking capability of the adoptive parents is reviewed by social services, and it makes it far harder for “womb shopping” to exploit poor women.
What is possibly a positive move to protect vulnerable women in poor countries and prevent children becoming a consumer market, is instead seen by the author only through the lens of middle class LGBT “I want!”. And that is quite telling.

My bold.

What is possibly a positive move to protect vulnerable women in poor countries and prevent children becoming a consumer market, is instead seen by the author only through the lens of middle class LGBT “I want!”.

Thanks, cake.

If surrogacy becomes increasingly outlawed, won't the practice become 1. More expensive 2. Go underground and result in worse exploitation and health outcomes for surrogate mothers?

@MarieDeGournay

So you are OK with lesbian families as long as the identify of the biological father and his genetic heritage are known to 'the person who results', aka 'children'?
Well that's good news”

Glad you see it that way.

Yes. I am absolutely opposed to a parent placing their own desires above the rights of a person to know who they are and where they came from. Why should people born to lesbian mothers be the only demographic who are denied this information? Also referring to them as “babies” and “children” infantilises them. They grow up to be people.

Falsifying birth certificates to suit some else’s reality is wrong. It is wrong when it leads to a false statement regarding birth sex and it is wrong when it leads to a person being told they have no father.

"rented wombs" seems a very appropriate terminology for the transaction