Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
JaniceBattersby · 16/10/2024 17:50

IwantToRetire · 16/10/2024 17:44

Is the paper signed up to IPSO?

If so use the complaint system

We consider complaints about the newspapers, magazines and digital news sites which are signed up to IPSO regulation

https://www.ipso.co.uk/making-a-complaint/

You need to go through the paper’s own complaints
procedure before IPSO will even look at this.

Greyskybluesky · 16/10/2024 17:56

It never happens...

SunnieShine · 16/10/2024 17:59

Buffypaws · 16/10/2024 15:35

I think we all saw the big twist coming rather a long way off.

Like from Mars...😒

MarieDeGournay · 16/10/2024 18:00

So much for the accuracy of crime statistics..

Ameliasvocalfry · 16/10/2024 18:16

@IwantToRetire you can email the editor [email protected]

IPSO ask for a copy of the email and details of the article. They also want your personal details before they will consider the complaint.

Igmum · 16/10/2024 18:27

Well done to the Police Commissioner. And WTF to the journalist. These are not our crimes.

JellySaurus · 16/10/2024 18:46

ScrollingLeaves · 16/10/2024 15:03

“In a free society we are, and should be, able to live our lives at liberty to describe ourselves however we like – providing it doesn’t affect other people. In cases of serious sexual offending when public protection is at stake the vast majority of people will rightly expect the criminal justice system to deal in facts and nothing more.

“The accused in this case, Osareen Omoruyi, is a 51 year old male.”

Bravo Matthew Barber Police Commissioner Thames Valley.
https://www.thamesvalley-pcc.gov.uk/news/pcc-statement-witney-arrest

Good. But not quite there:

In a free society we are, and should be, able to live our lives at liberty to describe ourselves however we like – providing it doesn’t require other people to join in. In cases when public protection is at stake the vast majority of people will rightly expect the criminal justice system and all news services to deal in facts and nothing more.

There. Fixed it for him.

JaniceBattersby · 16/10/2024 19:00

Ameliasvocalfry · 16/10/2024 18:16

@IwantToRetire you can email the editor [email protected]

IPSO ask for a copy of the email and details of the article. They also want your personal details before they will consider the complaint.

This is correct. And also, the article is well within current IPSO guidelines on this issue so it’s unlikely your complaint will get anywhere. I’m not trying to put you off, just managing expectations. (I’m a court reporter for a local newspaper)

IwantToRetire · 16/10/2024 19:03

JaniceBattersby · 16/10/2024 19:00

This is correct. And also, the article is well within current IPSO guidelines on this issue so it’s unlikely your complaint will get anywhere. I’m not trying to put you off, just managing expectations. (I’m a court reporter for a local newspaper)

I'm not interested in complaining, not sure why you think I was.

I was just making this comment given how many previous posters had said how shockingly bad it was for the paper to do so.

As much as we might like to think they do, I doubt newspaper editors read MN FWR.

And if no on tells them they are misreporting they will go on doing it.

1offnamechange · 16/10/2024 19:26

I don't get why they would deliberately write the article in such a way unless it is as @NPET has suggested, a year 8 English class attempt at a twist in the tale -
they clearly are okay with specifying the defendant was biologically male or they would have just skipped the last line altogether.

If they had concerns about being "called out" for misgendering the defendant they could have just changed the title to 'Witney adult accused of' or 'witney resident' and then just used the name or 'the defendent' or whatever throughout rather than any pronouns. It might read a bit oddly but it's doable.

Or they could have clarified at the start e.g. 'Omoruyi, who identifies as female/presented as female at the time of the attack,' - they wouldn't have then even necessarily needed the biological swabs line as everyone would understand what was being inferred, but they also couldn't be accused of being transphobic because either sentence is completely accurate and recognises their identity.

The way they've done it seems like both the technically worst-written and potentially offensive (to both TRA and GC views) way of doing it.

WeaselCheeks · 16/10/2024 19:32

Has anyone ever done a study/Freedom of Information request to find out how many sex offences recorded as being committed by women were actually committed by males?

ArabellaScott · 16/10/2024 19:38

WeaselCheeks · 16/10/2024 19:32

Has anyone ever done a study/Freedom of Information request to find out how many sex offences recorded as being committed by women were actually committed by males?

You'd have to FOI each individual police force I think.

JaniceBattersby · 16/10/2024 20:02

IwantToRetire · 16/10/2024 19:03

I'm not interested in complaining, not sure why you think I was.

I was just making this comment given how many previous posters had said how shockingly bad it was for the paper to do so.

As much as we might like to think they do, I doubt newspaper editors read MN FWR.

And if no on tells them they are misreporting they will go on doing it.

Pretty much everyone in my newsroom is a mum and is on Mumsnet. Most local journos are women these days. The editors: all men.

And yes it’s definitely worth contacting the editor.

ScrollingLeaves · 16/10/2024 20:19

ArabellaScott · 16/10/2024 19:38

You'd have to FOI each individual police force I think.

That still wouldn’t work if there is no information about the actual sex of the offender ever recorded in the first place.

This was the governments response in 2021 to a petition to record the sex as opposed to gender identity of a criminal:

Government responded
This response was given on 14 October 2021
The Government does not plan to require biological sex to be recorded across the criminal justice system in this way. Policy is being developed in certain areas of demographic recording.
Read the response in full
Policy responsibility for managing suspects and offenders is split between the Home Office (role of police) and the Ministry of Justice (courts, prisons and probation).
Currently, the Home Office does not centrally mandate how an offender’s sex or gender identity must be recorded by police. It is for each individual police force to decide what information to record. However, Home Office officials are working with the police to promote a standardized approach to recording basic demographic characteristics of victims and suspects of crime. This should bring greater accuracy and consistency of the recording of sex and gender identity.
Any such changes to police recording should influence how Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) records offenders, since magistrates and Crown Courts use data supplied by the police.
Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service (HMPPS) record the legally recognised gender of prisoners (or best available evidence where this is not known). The gender a prisoner identifies as is recorded in addition to the legally recognised gender, where this is different, which makes it clear that this is not the person’s legally recognised gender.
Officials have noted that ‘biological sex’ has not been defined in the petition. If ‘biological sex’ is defined in terms of anatomy, or chromosomes, then there would be both ethical and logistical challenges for the police or the HMPPS in determining this for every arrested suspect or prisoner. For instance, it would not be appropriate for the police or HMPPS to physically examine every suspect/prisoner in order to determine ‘biological sex’ if it had one of these meanings. Accordingly, there are no plans for the police or HMPPS to record the biological sex of prisoners.
Assuming that ‘biological sex’ is defined as the sex a person is assigned at birth, HMPPS’s position is as follows. Most people’s legal gender will remain the same as their sex as recorded at birth throughout their lives. The Gender Recognition Act 2004 allows transgender people who have (or have had) gender dysphoria, and intend to live in their acquired gender for the rest of their life, to change their legal gender. They can do this by obtaining a gender recognition certificate (GRC), which is in effect a replacement birth certificate. Section 9 of the Act states that:
“Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).”
Where a prisoner has a GRC, HMPPS will continue to record their legal gender, in line with the law. HMPPS will continue to manage prisoners with GRCs according to the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) and HMPPS policy framework: ‘The Care and Management of Individuals who are Transgender’, which is available at: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf
Home Office

NB:
If ‘biological sex’ is defined in terms of anatomy, or chromosomes, then there would be both ethical and logistical challenges for the police or the HMPPS in determining this for every arrested suspect or prisoner. For instance, it would not be appropriate for the police or HMPPS to physically examine every suspect/prisoner in order to determine ‘biological sex’ if it had one of these meanings.

This is ridiculous. Usually it is clear that a man is not a woman especially if ‘she’ has raped someone, exposed ‘her penis’, or used the power of ‘her body’ to overcome and kill someone and, if in doubt, they could do a cheek swab. This is about serious crimes.

Why in the light of what they said here, do the police find it inappropriate to look into a criminal’s sex when they do find it appropriate to strip search (mostly) black (mostly innocent) teenagers - schoolgirls even?

The Oxford police taking a cheek swab is very good news.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf

SinnerBoy · 16/10/2024 20:29

Snowypeaks · Today 13:48

Poor child.

I remember the case from when it was first posted on MN. The consensus was that it was a man and I'm not in the least surprised that it was a man. It's sneaky and dishonest to pretend that the attacker was a woman.

There have been a number of cases of (actual) female teachers having sex with male pupils in the US, of late. If people have seen such reports, they would probably conclude that it was an actual woman who had assaulted the boy.

Shame, shame, shame on the Oxford Mail.

duc748 · 16/10/2024 20:32

Assuming that ‘biological sex’ is defined as the sex a person is assigned at birth, HMPPS’s position is as follows. Most people’s legal gender will remain the same as their sex as recorded at birth throughout their lives. The Gender Recognition Act 2004 allows transgender people who have (or have had) gender dysphoria, and intend to live in their acquired gender for the rest of their life, to change their legal gender. They can do this by obtaining a gender recognition certificate (GRC), which is in effect a replacement birth certificate.

So do we all have a 'legal gender'? Whether we like it or not?

Villagetoraiseachild · 16/10/2024 20:35

I seem to remember the Oxford Mail have form with this.

spannasaurus · 16/10/2024 20:40

The Oxford police taking a cheek swab is very good news.

They took an intimate swab not a cheek swab.

dermalermalurd · 16/10/2024 20:47

Buffypaws · 16/10/2024 15:35

I think we all saw the big twist coming rather a long way off.

The behaviour description gave it away very quickly.

IwantToRetire · 16/10/2024 20:51

Transgender
Transgender people are those for whom their current gender identity differs from that declared at birth, whether or not they have later undergone surgical gender reassignment (i.e., a sex-change operation).

  • Intersex people - those born with one or more variations in physical sex characteristics that do not fit the typical definitions for male or female bodies - are sometimes discussed in the same context as transgender. There is a clear distinction between the two, but at the same time a similarity, in that intersex people have also faced discrimination and persecution as a result of their non-binary gender/sex identity. Reporting of intersex people should therefore adopt a similarly sensitive approach.
  • As with lesbian, gay and bisexual people, a person's transgender status should only be mentioned in journalistic reporting if it is pertinent. Similarly, a journalist should not investigate a transgender personal life just because they have declared themselves to be transgender. This includes investigating the private life of a transgender person just because they work in a position which carries a high degree of public responsibility.
  • Care should be taken in the use of "sex change”, “pre-operative” and “post- operative”. Unless, that is, you are referring specifically to the personal impact of surgical gender reassignment on the individuals concerned. Otherwise use “transition”. Don’t assume that a transgender person has undergone or intends to undergo sex-change surgery. It is also inappropriate to emphasise surgery when reporting on transgender people, as to do so underplays the breadth of their real-life stories.
  • As with lesbian, gay and bisexual word “transsexual” should not be used as a noun. Also, take care when using it in adjectival form. Its contemporary relevance is restricted largely to scientific and medical discourse.
  • In your reporting, always refer to a transgender person's chosen name, and ask them which personal pronoun they would prefer to be used to describe them. If this is not possible, use the pronoun consistent with the person's appearance and gender self- expression. Avoid putting quotation marks around a transgender person's name or pronoun.
  • When referring to gender identity, use unambiguous terms. That is, a person who is born male and transitions to become female is a “transgender woman”, whereas a person who is born female and transitions to become male is a “transgender man”. Within the transgender community, members often refer to themselves using the shorthand ‘trans’.”
More information From https://www.nuj.org.uk/resource/nuj-guidelines-on-lgbt--reporting.html

NUJ guidelines on LGBT+ reporting

Gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people have the right to fair, accurate and inclusive reporting of their life stories and concerns. As with all members of society, the media should treat LGBT people with fairness, integrity and respect.

https://www.nuj.org.uk/resource/nuj-guidelines-on-lgbt--reporting.html

duc748 · 16/10/2024 20:56

Don’t assume that a transgender person has undergone or intends to undergo sex-change surgery

I wouldn't, because there is no such thing as "sex-change surgery". And journalists (and everyone else) really shouldn't use the term.

flyingbuttress43 · 16/10/2024 21:22

One of the most important things to do is to campaign for IPSO to change their guidelines so that biological sex is recorded, not this trans hogwash.

IwantToRetire · 17/10/2024 01:08

Surely this from the guidelines applies to this report:

As with lesbian, gay and bisexual people, a person's transgender status should only be mentioned in journalistic reporting if it is pertinent.

It is pertinent in relation to the crime.

It is in relation to logging numbers of crimes by sex, etc..

By not reporting accurately the paper is helping the now convicted criminal cover up their crime.

Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 17/10/2024 07:52

Distractable · 16/10/2024 13:47

Quite the last line reveal in that Oxford Mail report. Honestly, what a disgrace.

The Oxford Mail is a pathetic rag. It knows what serious crime is: putting up ‘transphobic’ feminist stickers. (We have to accept they were transphobic, as they were too evil to be shown in this report.) And to hell with balanced reporting — no attempt here to seek the feminists’ point of view.
https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/17960516.sticker-fight-transphobic-messages/

Oxford at WAR over transphobic stickers

A fight has broken out over transphobic stickers in Oxford city centre.

https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/17960516.sticker-fight-transphobic-messages

Swipe left for the next trending thread