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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Master Victoria McCloud - judgement in final case

20 replies

spannasaurus · 16/10/2024 11:28

Maya Forstater posted about the judgement in the final case taken by Master McCloud. I've posted one section below - neither party to the case asked for Master McCloud to be recused and this consideration of recusal was carried out after the case had finished being heard. The case in question did not involve any trans people (other than Master McCloud)

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/KB/2024/2595.html

"Consideration of Recusal
Behind this case, as I have noted, we have a woman who alleged rape and whose centrality must not be diminished.

The position has been expressed publicly by current and former Ministers of the Crown and by some in the Law, during the currency of this case, that people who are transsexual are the embodiment and expression of a 'transgender ideology' (sometimes 'gender ideology'), or that steps must be taken to protect women from transsexual people by isolation or segregative legal measures in some contexts which have been canvassed in the UK for implementation. The essence of the belief is that people such as this judge make a choice to be transsexual, are biassed against women, deny their experience (or deny the existence of sex at all, or assert multiple sexes), are a threat to women and children if they share a space with them, and seek to gain access to positions of influence with manipulative intent, which is to say therefore also in bad faith.

The belief that there exists such an 'ideology' is of uncertain source. Some argue that it originates from religious principles; others perceive it as a recent evolution of secular radical feminism. That is for the social historians: it need not be considered here and I express no settled view. An interested reader in search of a rabbit-hole may refer, as hopping-off points, to the texts of EU Parliamentary Assembly Resolution 2417 (2022)[1] at paragraph 5 and the EU Parliamentary report of July 2021 (reference PE 653.644)[2] prepared for the Special Committee on Foreign Interference in all Democratic Processes in the European Union, including Disinformation (INGE).

The dilemma for the sole judge from the transsexual community is that all judges are appointed by the Crown, must bear the Crown's trust and confidence, and cannot remain if they lose that trust. This judgment is a 'hang over' from one of my final hearings prior to my (in the circumstances inevitable) departure from the Bench. It is that fact which means I must address recusal because of the facts of this particular case which I have already mentioned.

No objection was put to me by either side to my dealing with the case but in the circumstances I felt obliged to consider whether I should give a decision or withdraw, despite having concluded the hearings in the case.

In the event (see my judgment below) I have decided that the conduct of the litigation in the context and seriousness of the issues relating to the rape and assault complainant and how the robust positions on either side may or may not have been appropriate, is a matter for the Costs Judge under CPR rule 44.11. Therefore I have not had to weigh such sensitive aspects into my consideration further. Having excluded that aspect from my reasoning, in my judgment it is unlikely that a fair minded, reasonable member of the public would consider that there is a real risk of bias.

Weighing in my decision is that the parties rightly expect a decision, have incurred the time and cost of the case and have given me the privilege and duty of hearing it. To recuse myself would amount to a waste of court resources on a considerable scale.

There seems to me to be a difference between accepting that Ministers on behalf of the Crown may express a lack of confidence in a judge, necessitating her stepping down, by expressing a view that persons such as her are a risk or threat, versus tolerating Ministerial or external impact on a specific case or decision, on the other. Recognising the first is merely to recognise the misfortune of one's own accident of birth and the shifting sands of social tolerance, but to allow the second would be to betray the judicial oath, and I will not do that.

The first duty of a judge, and now my last, is to decide the case and to give reasons for her decision. That is what I shall do"

Elphicke v Times Media Ltd [2024] EWHC 2595 (KB) (14 October 2024)

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/KB/2024/2595.html

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/10/2024 11:31

What is the relevance of all the waffle about trans stuff? Why is McCloud bringing it up? I don't get it.

spannasaurus · 16/10/2024 11:33

As far as I can see there is no relevance to the case. Its a personal political statement.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/10/2024 11:35

How tedious for it to be shoehorned in.

PriOn1 · 16/10/2024 11:37

Sounds potentially as if the case should be reassessed by a competent judge.

Helleofabore · 16/10/2024 11:42

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/10/2024 11:31

What is the relevance of all the waffle about trans stuff? Why is McCloud bringing it up? I don't get it.

I suspect it was to shoehorn in precedence, if anything.

When I read this earlier, I could think of no other reason except to get it wedged into a case.

I doubt that any reasonable person could now declare that this judge was completely impartial and not an activist while in their role.

GC5 · 16/10/2024 11:44

PriOn1 · 16/10/2024 11:37

Sounds potentially as if the case should be reassessed by a competent judge.

Just for perspective - I’m gender critical, but in my professional dealings with Master McCloud, I have always found decisions and judgments fair and well considered. There are some judges out there who I dread seeing my case has been assigned to - Master McCloud was never one of them.

Chrysanthemum5 · 16/10/2024 11:45

So this is a rape case, and neither party asked for recusal, and they had a right to expect a speedy response. But this judge chose to spend time focusing on their own situation, and writing a lengthy polemic on that?

I know TRAs are often quite selfish and unaware of anything beyond themselves, but this is astonishingly bad

spannasaurus · 16/10/2024 11:54

Chrysanthemum5 · 16/10/2024 11:45

So this is a rape case, and neither party asked for recusal, and they had a right to expect a speedy response. But this judge chose to spend time focusing on their own situation, and writing a lengthy polemic on that?

I know TRAs are often quite selfish and unaware of anything beyond themselves, but this is astonishingly bad

It was a defamation case rather than a rape case

OP posts:
Chrysanthemum5 · 16/10/2024 11:55

Ah thanks @spannasaurus I was confused. I still think it's shoddy practise

spannasaurus · 16/10/2024 11:58

Chrysanthemum5 · 16/10/2024 11:55

Ah thanks @spannasaurus I was confused. I still think it's shoddy practise

I agree that its shoddy practise.

OP posts:
LoobiJee · 16/10/2024 12:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/10/2024 11:31

What is the relevance of all the waffle about trans stuff? Why is McCloud bringing it up? I don't get it.

It seems to me that McCloud is seeking (yet again) to create the impression of being a victim and to create the (entirely false) impression that McCloud has been forced to step down due to an anti-trans campaign, and also to create an (entirely false) narrative that those standing up for women’s rights to single-sex male-free spaces, facilities and services are “anti-trans”.

As understand it, McCloud had to stand down due to failing the requirement to be non-political and to be demonstrably impartial, after McCloud undertook some campaigning activity. I’m afraid I can’t remember the details.

LoobiJee · 16/10/2024 12:16

I’d like to see the evidence for this allegation by McCloud.

The position has been expressed publicly by current and former Ministers of the Crown and by some in the Law, during the currency of this case, that people who are transsexual are the embodiment and expression of a 'transgender ideology' (sometimes 'gender ideology'), or that steps must be taken to protect women from transsexual people by isolation or segregative legal measures in some contexts which have been canvassed in the UK for implementation. The essence of the belief is that people such as this judge make a choice to be transsexual, are biassed against women, deny their experience (or deny the existence of sex at all, or assert multiple sexes), are a threat to women and children if they share a space with them, and seek to gain access to positions of influence with manipulative intent, which is to say therefore also in bad faith.”

LoobiJee · 16/10/2024 12:22

And once again, we see the absolute refusal to acknowledge the right of women and girls to single-sex female-only spaces when they are in a state of undress or other circumstances .

Instead we get hyperbole and misrepresentation. And ‘woe is me’ claims of being accused of being a threat to women.

No. Women are entitled to the dignity and privacy of single-sex female-only space which males - including males who are not a threat - do not have access to.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/10/2024 12:53

Just for perspective - I’m gender critical, but in my professional dealings with Master McCloud, I have always found decisions and judgments fair and well considered. There are some judges out there who I dread seeing my case has been assigned to - Master McCloud was never one of them.

I know McCloud seems fairly respected by lawyers, and that gender critical women, including female barrister Sarah Phillimore, got a lot of flak when they criticised McCloud.

x.com/svphillimore/status/1749690643591434485?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

What are your thoughts on the preamble here?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/10/2024 12:57

Maya Forstater's thread as mentioned in the OP:

https://x.com/mforstater/status/1846316483695038589

In March 2024 I made a complaint about the conduct of Master Victoria McCloud in politicising the judiciary.

Nothing was done.

www.forstater.com/the-judge-to-whom-the-rules-do-not-apply/

Circumferences · 16/10/2024 13:24

As understand it, McCloud had to stand down due to failing the requirement to be non-political and to be demonstrably impartial,

Evidenced blindingly by their statement in this case

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 16/10/2024 17:03

GC5 · 16/10/2024 11:44

Just for perspective - I’m gender critical, but in my professional dealings with Master McCloud, I have always found decisions and judgments fair and well considered. There are some judges out there who I dread seeing my case has been assigned to - Master McCloud was never one of them.

Yes lots of us have said that, even after the whole blue hair / insanely inappropriate clothing stuff kicked in. I always got on very well personally and professionally with them. However McCloud has clearly lost all impartiality, it was inevitable that was going to seep through into judgments, such as this one.
I definitely thought twice about wearing my usual green/white/purple bracelet or handbag strap when appearing in the last couple of years, which is obviously ridiculous.

ArabellaScott · 16/10/2024 22:18

Bollocks, McCloud.

ArabellaScott · 16/10/2024 22:19

'people who are transsexual are the embodiment and expression of a 'transgender ideology' (sometimes 'gender ideology'),'

Twaddle, mate.

'or that steps must be taken to protect women from transsexual people'.

Men. To protect women from men, you disingenuous twit.

ArabellaScott · 16/10/2024 22:21

I can't see why anyone would respect this whiny, manipulative pish.

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