So what exactly is gender?

[XChrome]

I'm still waiting for [redacted], to explain in depth what gender is. According to many people, it's a feeling, a self-perception, which they are labelling as gender. My question would be; how do the people who are using this label for a feeling know that the label they are giving it is accurate? How do they know it's not just the result of being socialized into believing certain feelings or interests signify that one is the gender that society has deemed corresponds to those feelings and interests?
I genuinely want to know, because I have never had this feeling in my life. I can perceive only my biological sex. I have always regarded my self-perception as the result of my individual personality and experiences, not about either gender or biological sex. However, many of those experiences are sex specific, so biological sex does play into it in that sense.

Can anybody answer this question about what gender is? Can you describe the feeling and explain how you know what it signifies? Please note that this is not a goading post. I'm not looking for an argument, just an explanation.
Thanks.

[Post edited by MNHQ to remove tag]

Of course brains will develop differently.

But you seem to have completely missed my point. A woman's brain is a brain in a woman's body. A man's brain is a brain in a man's body. It's not possible to have a woman's brain in a man's body or vice versa.

Both men and women have all sorts of different personalities. There are some traits more commonly found in males, and some more commonly found in females. This doesn't mean that a woman who shows personality traits more commonly found in males has a man's brain. She has a woman's brain no matter what her personality, because she has a female body and therefore a female brain (which is part of the body).

What point is it that you stated I missed?

This is incorrect. Actually, there's evidence progesterone inhibits aggression and estrogens (most specifically estradiol) raise it in both sexes. Estrogen is also synthesized from testosterone.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2600909/#:~:text=However%2C%20while%20testosterone%20in%20general,default%20level%20of%20aggressive%20behaviour.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/governing-behavior/202208/don-t-blame-the-testes-all-aggression

www.ucsf.edu/news/2009/10/103292/estrogen-plays-key-role-male-brain-development

I just thought, since you had brought it up, that you had some idea. Clearly not!

Why would I be able to explain it? I am not the one putting forward the idea of a biological basis for gender/gender identity, and was hoping that a genderist would be able to explain. As I've said, it's not even clear what those terms mean when used by genderists.

And if you knew me, you would find hilarious the mere idea that I would even know how to use Chatgpt.
😁

Since we've all missed your point, perhaps you could explain more clearly what your point is. If everyone is missing it, it's more likely that you didn't explain it clearly than that we're all too stupid to understand.

If it's just some bodyswap nonsense about gendered brains being born in the wrong sexed body, we haven't missed your point, we just think that it's fanciful nonsense.

There is a female aggression promoting hormone as well- estradiol.
So it really isn't just down to testosterone itself.
Interestingly, estradiol has both feminizing and defeminizing effects on the developing brain.

I take estradiol as part of HRT. It has many important benefits, but too much of it can certainly lead to anger and irritability.

Very interesting

I did not know that! MN living up to its educational brief again! 😀

Yes, I agree with this. Men with good intentions work to control their aggressive instincts and sex drive. I think feminists have correctly identified the innate tendencies for bad male behaviour, but without direct experience of being a man, they are bound to make assumptions, based on their own experiences as women.

Their assumptions are valid expressions of their experiences, but it will always be difficult for a woman to fully understand the pressures on men, both biological and societal. I regret some of my behaviour as a young man, though from my perspective it was understandable. From a woman's perspective it was probably typical "man being insensitive".

When well directed, a man's hormonally influenced tendencies can be a positive, but if uncontrolled (either by societal pressures or a desire to behave well) they are likely to be destructive.

Thanks, RapidOnsetGenderCritic
Fair points.
I think we can see or imagine the pressures on young men and boys especially, but I agree that's not the same as experiencing that pressure.

As to your last paragraph, that with bells on - if I may say so, this is what many men themselves don't get IMO - that total licence, apparently without consequences, hurts them as well. It may be wishful thinking on my part, but I think a man who has self-control genuinely has a better quality of life than one who does not.

Fine, but if you started to claim rights only Americans have, like say, claiming that you didn't need a visa to visit the US cos you identify as American...

Which wasn't my point. Which was that some behaviours which we think are gendered (socially and culturally formed) may actually be based on biological differences.

"You might find the idea uncomfortable, I do too, but there really is a body of work that suggests there is a biological basis for gendered behaviour"

I think I was pretty clear. Nothing about gender identity, body swapping.

Gender is a bunch of outdated sex-based personality and appearance stereotypes.

Also, for those interested in the interplay of hormones, cortisol could potentially be as important as testosterone. Lower cortisol is associated with higher aggression.
An imbalance of both cortisol and testosterone predicted criminal psychopathology in some studies.
Though testosterone has been linked to aggression, causality has not really been shown. Much of the research seems to suffer from sampling bias, such as examining populations known to be high in aggression, such as convicted criminals. There is also evidence of the reverse- that aggression is what causes a rise in testosterone. Testosterone may be associated more with competition and dominance, and aggression is a means to the end of establishing dominance and winning competitions.

An interesting article on testosterone and aggression;

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-testosterone-alone-doesnt-cause-violence/

It's not wishful thinking. Aggression is associated with lower quality of life- substance abuse, lower academic performance, mental health problems, troubled relationships and criminal behaviour to name just a few effects.
Also, lower emotional intelligence correlates to higher aggression and lower quality of life.
To me this is evidence that toxic masculinity is harmful to males.

A very good point.

Which is what I always assumed, but I'm not convinced it's 100% the case. Although as @XChrome said, it's never simple because of the bidirectional nature of everything from hormones to our gut microbiome, but all impacting on our brains & our behaviour.

but if there’s a biological basis, then it’s sex based behaviour not gendered behaviour, no?

I don’t disagree by the way

so gendered behaviour, stuff like liking dolls over cars is driven by societal expectations. I believe that

but do people who can end up pregnant with a dependent child as a result of a sexual encounter behave differently in general to people who never will? yeah, I believe that.

No, it really isn't. There's very little evidence on what the kidney has to do with behaviour. kidneys, for example, develop differently in males & females, there are differences between the sexes in the genes that code for enzymes that regulate blood pressure. The differences are most apparent in the proximal tubule region of the nephron.

So, like the brain, there are sex based differences, but you could have a male kidney transplant, and it would be identifiable as a male organ working in a female body.

Unfortunately for you, we can't do that for brains yet.

I suspect we may be in violent agreement here and it's the use of the phrase 'gendered behaviour' that is muddying the water.

brains are brains and you can't tell the difference between one from a man and one from a woman just by looking at the brain.

if you want to determine if it's a brain owned by a man or a woman ('a man's brain' or 'a woman's brain'), you will need to determine the sex of the body it came out of. that still won't tell you much about how that person behaved, dressed, or their likes or dislikes

but you could probably make some reasonably accurate predictions about how that person felt about sexual encounters and the precautions they may have taken. you may be able to predict their behaviour if going places alone late at night or meeting up with strangers.

but these are sex based behaviour differences. they are as a result of our sexual dimorphism

That's just the brain, though? What about other organs? Men's hearts are bigger than women's. Would a woman's heart be suitable for transplant into a man?

Yeah, I know, the jokes write themselves! 😛

You mean like carrying a child? Or wearing jeans?

You were talking about women's brains not about gendered behaviour.

Sorry JellySaurus- but daamnn that's a good burn