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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jon Sopel's new book

38 replies

southbiscay · 08/10/2024 18:50

In Jon Sopel's new book ''Strangeland', he has a reasonably lengthy section on what he calls the trans debate. Overall it's well written and seems to largely understand the issue. He is extremely supportive of (ex colleague) Hannah Barnes and the Cass Review. I only had two issues - firstly the use of wrong sex pronouns for trans identified people. Asking 'where should she go?' evokes a different emotional response to asking 'where should he go?' (as expounded by Barracker in the 'Pronouns are Rohypnol' piece)

Secondly, he repeatedly says that he can't understand why, when trans identified people make up such a tiny percentage of the population, it is seemingly such a big issue, completely missing the fact that allowing men to be considered women has the potential to affect 51 percent of the population.

OP posts:
Redshoeblueshoe · 08/10/2024 18:54

The second point outweighs the first.
He just doesn't give a shit

popeydokey · 08/10/2024 18:56

Yes, you have to be wilfully dim not to grasp that redefining what "man" and "woman" mean affects everyone.

I get the impression that wrong sex pronouns are there to head off the focus being "he used the wrong pronouns" - I'm somewhat sympathetic even though I agree with your point.

duc748 · 08/10/2024 19:01

Except that 'man' isn't really being re-defined, is it? It's only the definition of 'woman' that's up for debate, it seems. A point which really isn't hammered home often enough, I think.

JoodyBlueToo · 08/10/2024 19:15

I can't actually read pieces that use female pronouns for males. I find I shut down and can't continue. I actually can't parse the piece, as I am forever reading "she" and translating it in my head to "he". It is exhausting. But incorrect pronoun use means I doubt everything else the person has written. It feels like being in a building without foundations and I lack respect for the author thereafter.

Not much value add to this conversation really. Except I have to say it somewhere. Maybe it strikes a chord.

I heard a well-known GC recently say with regard to this "I can hold two thoughts in my head at once" arguing for the use of preferred pronouns. I am not actually sure that is true for most people.

popeydokey · 08/10/2024 19:21

duc748 · 08/10/2024 19:01

Except that 'man' isn't really being re-defined, is it? It's only the definition of 'woman' that's up for debate, it seems. A point which really isn't hammered home often enough, I think.

Not only that, but neither are actually being 'redefined' as no definition is ever put forward. It's just "woman doesn't mean female!"
("Apart from when we say there are genders that match sexes - then it does")

Toseland · 08/10/2024 19:21

allowing men to be considered women has the potential to affect 51 percent of the population.
It affects the entire population and also removes rights and safeguarding for over 51% of the population as children are affected too.
It has as much of an impact as declaring North is now also South, or black is now white i.e. it completely destroys society and systems and customs we have built.
Imagine doing that with #nodebate at all.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/10/2024 19:21

Secondly, he repeatedly says that he can't understand why, when trans identified people make up such a tiny percentage of the population, it is seemingly such a big issue, completely missing the fact that allowing men to be considered women has the potential to affect 51 percent of the population.

so he hasn’t bothered himself to understand- he could have spoken to Hannah Barnes who I’m sure would have enlightened him

Very bored of liberal men wailing it’s all soooo hard to understand why it’s an issue when it’s blindingly obvious that redefining women to mean adult human females and men with lady feels affects 51% of the population

duc748 · 08/10/2024 19:29

It's not bloody hard to understand at all, and possession of a penis should not make understanding it any more difficult.

RethinkingLife · 08/10/2024 19:33

JoodyBlueToo · 08/10/2024 19:15

I can't actually read pieces that use female pronouns for males. I find I shut down and can't continue. I actually can't parse the piece, as I am forever reading "she" and translating it in my head to "he". It is exhausting. But incorrect pronoun use means I doubt everything else the person has written. It feels like being in a building without foundations and I lack respect for the author thereafter.

Not much value add to this conversation really. Except I have to say it somewhere. Maybe it strikes a chord.

I heard a well-known GC recently say with regard to this "I can hold two thoughts in my head at once" arguing for the use of preferred pronouns. I am not actually sure that is true for most people.

I regularly experience several streams of thought at once. I would never deny that it comes at a cognitive cost and it takes substantial effort to separate and voice them.

ETA: I'd end up preferring not to speak than to run the risk of making an error in a setting where it would lead to a brouhaha and derail the actual meeting/event/conversation that involved thinking about pronouns.

duc748 · 08/10/2024 19:38

And as has been pointed out, if you're under pressure in the witness-box when that happens...

southbiscay · 08/10/2024 19:50

Indeed theeyeballsinthesky
At one point he says "it's all so complicated" and I'm listening in the car and shouting "it's not in the slightest bit bloody complicated!"

The only thing that makes it complicated is if you give primacy to the ethereal, shifting, regressive and frankly batshit unverifiable notion of gender identity over the established, scientific, verifiable fact of sex. Stop doing that and it is no longer complicated in the slightest.

OP posts:
QAOPspaceman · 08/10/2024 19:59

southbiscay · 08/10/2024 19:50

Indeed theeyeballsinthesky
At one point he says "it's all so complicated" and I'm listening in the car and shouting "it's not in the slightest bit bloody complicated!"

The only thing that makes it complicated is if you give primacy to the ethereal, shifting, regressive and frankly batshit unverifiable notion of gender identity over the established, scientific, verifiable fact of sex. Stop doing that and it is no longer complicated in the slightest.

This; a milliion times, this

DrBlackbird · 08/10/2024 20:39

Very bored of liberal men wailing it’s all soooo hard to understand why it’s an issue when it’s blindingly obvious that redefining women to mean adult human females and men with lady feels affects 51% of the population

Echoing this^ but it also goes to show just exactly how little brain power/thinking space that men give to women’s lives. Even intelligent and ‘enlightened’ men do not give a nano thought how policy or behaviour or design or practices might impact women.

Saucery · 08/10/2024 20:44

I expect it’s complicated in the same way as his listening to John Humphries’ sexist rant about pay for women in the media was ‘complicated’, leaving Sopel no alternative but to simper “Oh John,,,,” 🙄

duc748 · 08/10/2024 20:51

DrBlackbird · 08/10/2024 20:39

Very bored of liberal men wailing it’s all soooo hard to understand why it’s an issue when it’s blindingly obvious that redefining women to mean adult human females and men with lady feels affects 51% of the population

Echoing this^ but it also goes to show just exactly how little brain power/thinking space that men give to women’s lives. Even intelligent and ‘enlightened’ men do not give a nano thought how policy or behaviour or design or practices might impact women.

I think the view of many (most?) men, if you confront them with gender ideology, is, yeah, it's bollocks, isn't it? But, not my circus, not my monkeys.

illinivich · 08/10/2024 23:22

Anyone who believes TWAW generally don't say "its complicated". If men can become women, then its simple - single sex spaces remain single sex even when men with gender use womens facilities.

It only gets complicated when we know no one can change sex, men want to be treated as women, and we want to maintain single sex services. The complication is avoiding having to tell either men or women that what they want cannot happen.

he repeatedly says that he can't understand why, when trans identified people make up such a tiny percentage of the population, it is seemingly such a big issue

Its possible to see the comment above in two ways - how does such a small percentage of people have so much cultural power, or why are women concerns about a few men following girls into the changing rooms.

NPET · 08/10/2024 23:22

But we're suffering. Not him. Not men. We "have to" allow penises in female spaces and we should not "have to".

TempestTost · 09/10/2024 01:02

When I have spoken to the people who ask this question about the tiny number, I don't think, in general, it's because they don't understand women are half the population,

IME it's because they are really thinking in terms of a tiny number of people, where many of us will never even meet such a person and the most sensible thing is probably to manage them on a case by case basis.

They haven't really seen the extent to which it is affecting people in their jobs, or especially, kids at school who have nothing to do with any of it.

CavalierApproach · 09/10/2024 01:33

I’m 100% sure he understands the reality of the situation better than he’s letting on.

He wants to give the impression of having thought seriously about it and developed a nuanced take, but doesn’t want to risk being too clear about his conclusions. He would have something to lose whatever they were.

Pretending it’s complicated is the well-trodden path through that minefield, right? It’s just so predictable and tedious, though. It’s a shame.

Ingenieur · 09/10/2024 06:21

CavalierApproach · 09/10/2024 01:33

I’m 100% sure he understands the reality of the situation better than he’s letting on.

He wants to give the impression of having thought seriously about it and developed a nuanced take, but doesn’t want to risk being too clear about his conclusions. He would have something to lose whatever they were.

Pretending it’s complicated is the well-trodden path through that minefield, right? It’s just so predictable and tedious, though. It’s a shame.

I wonder if this is a result of the BBC disease of "balance". In their reportage they feel it's important to express both sides of an issue, rather than defer to the older principle that "it isn't the journalist's job to ask two people if it's raining, it's to look out the window".

PriOn1 · 09/10/2024 07:05

I think that for those trying to see both sides, who don’t want this to be such a toxic culture war, the only possible rational reason for arguing that “trans people” should have the “rights” that are being demanded on their behalf is that their numbers are so few that it’s not going to have a massive effect.

I suspect this will be the next argument used by rational transavtivists. These arguments and discussions go in waves, which change over time as each is rebutted by women arguing rationally. Returning to the “numbers” argument conveniently moves the discussion away from the currently pervasive “what is a woman” question that has been leveraged to good effect by those arguing for women’s rights recently.

I understand this argument and it’s the one that won the discussion when the original GRA was introduced. It’s a tempting argument and I can see how easy it would be to fall into. If I look at my own life, on the surface nothing has changed and neither GRA, nor the march of Stonewall-led, “getting ahead of the law” self-ID has had a significant effect.

If you can bring yourself to believe that the majority of “trans people” are sad victims and very vulnerable, then you can make the argument that societally, we ought to try to find a balance between women’s right and “trans rights”.

However, anyone who’s been watching this for a while, can see that the point where there was a reasonable argument for that balancing act was passed a long time ago. In the UK, with the GRA and the EA, people who are going through a real medical transition are already well protected and have some “rights” or “privileges” (depending on your position) such as being able to change legal sex, which many already regard as dodgy. Most people don’t know and are shocked if you tell them birth certificates can be changed, for example.

It’s also becoming anecdotally obvious that even the current system is beginning to cause problems, particularly when it comes to sports, prisons and rape crisis. That is because it only takes a small number of men taking advantage to negatively impact a huge number of women.

As soon as self-ID is on the table, there is no possibility of balance, which is why there is such an uprising of women on Terf Island. It occurred when self-ID was about to be imposed and women spotted it in time as the usual below the radar tactics failed.

I can see how beguiling that argument is though. If I can cling to the low numbers argument, then I don’t have to be seen as being mean to anyone. It’s back to being a straightforward “balancing of rights” exercise.

What those arguing this fail to take into account is that we are already past the point where any kind of balance is fair and reasonable to women.

Unfortunately, persuading people that any or all current “rights” should be rescinded (for example making a GRA more difficult to obtain, stopping falsification of birth certificates or ensuring the EA only protects actual transitioning patients, as it was intended to do) goes against the expected march of “progress” which many would assume to be the gradual rolling out of all the “rights” currently being demanded by the trans lobby. That assumption is one one of the huge mountains we are having to work to overcome before we can persuade people to our cause.

illinivich · 09/10/2024 07:33

The logic is that if 1% of men are trans, and 1% of those are predators, and a small number of those will have the opportunity to attack women at any given time, the risk is very small.

Whereas 99% of the 1% of the population are in danger or traumatised in the male facilities.

So its a numbers game, basically.

PriOn1 · 09/10/2024 07:53

illinivich · 09/10/2024 07:33

The logic is that if 1% of men are trans, and 1% of those are predators, and a small number of those will have the opportunity to attack women at any given time, the risk is very small.

Whereas 99% of the 1% of the population are in danger or traumatised in the male facilities.

So its a numbers game, basically.

This fails to take into account the fact that cross-dressing men are more likely to be predatory or commit higher levels of sexual offences, due to the fact that fetishistic behaviours and paraphilias cluster.

And that’s before we take into account the fact that men with criminal tendencies will also be likely to tell any lie that suits them to gain access to their chosen victims.

It also fails to address the fact that women have the right to dignity and privacy from the opposite sex, regardless of actual risk of being assaulted.

It’s also unproven that 99% of the 1% are at risk in male facilities. Perhaps if they engage in risky behaviour patterns, then they may increase their risk, but realistically this doesn’t hold true for most situations, such as using a male toilet in the workplace. They might receive some verbal pushback, but the chances of actual physical risk are small.

Additionally, the answer to some men being at risk is not to move them into the women’s facilities, but to work out why they are at risk and how that can be reduced, without affecting women’s rights.

It’s noteable that only women’s RISK is mentioned in your argument, but being TRAUMATIZED is somehow only a problem when it’s happening to men.

popeydokey · 09/10/2024 08:02

illinivich · 09/10/2024 07:33

The logic is that if 1% of men are trans, and 1% of those are predators, and a small number of those will have the opportunity to attack women at any given time, the risk is very small.

Whereas 99% of the 1% of the population are in danger or traumatised in the male facilities.

So its a numbers game, basically.

That makes some sense if "being trans" is a measurable thing (ie it's based on some "genuine" test of gender dysphoria, or it's someone who genuinely wants to be the opposite sex, however you 'test' that).

But with self-id "being trans" means saying a thing or acting in a certain way (eg using opposite sex toilets). How can that be measured as a small number?

It's also the principal. What are you (not actually you! ) actually saying? That we should pretend people are physically the opposite sex? That we should actually change the definition of woman to accommodate all sexes - if so, to what? Don't just handwave it away as "for a few hundred people it doesn't matter about being clear on this".

roseyposey · 09/10/2024 08:05

southbiscay · 08/10/2024 19:50

Indeed theeyeballsinthesky
At one point he says "it's all so complicated" and I'm listening in the car and shouting "it's not in the slightest bit bloody complicated!"

The only thing that makes it complicated is if you give primacy to the ethereal, shifting, regressive and frankly batshit unverifiable notion of gender identity over the established, scientific, verifiable fact of sex. Stop doing that and it is no longer complicated in the slightest.

Agree. It sounds as if he wants to sit on the fence while remaining seemingly nice towards his former colleague.