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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prison isn't working for women - can it be fixed

39 replies

RethinkingLife · 06/10/2024 11:01

Good piece with thoughtful contributions. All the contributors align on the reality that prison is inappropriate for the majority of the women sent there and serves no useful function.

So many quotable items and statistics. This summary is good.

If you're only thinking about working with women at the point at which they're sent to prison, you're starting too late. The real solutions are earlier upstream, where change needs to happen.
Women are being sent to prison essentially as a punishment for being poor and falling into debt - they are the shock absorbers of poverty. Survivors of domestic abuse are criminalised.
They often experience horrendous mental health problems. The list just goes on. The system is completely broken.
Labour‘s Women's Justice Board is welcome if it can really do something. In the long term, we want to stop women being criminalised for the discriminatory experiences they have.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c243650gj07o

Montage image of handcuffs with one in the shape as the gender symbol for females

Prison isn't working for women, ministers say. Can it be fixed?

People with experience of the criminal justice system discuss how it can be reformed for female offenders.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c243650gj07o

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 07/10/2024 17:36

Although this is a derail, as I dont think it applies to women, over 50% of male prisoners cant or can only barely read or write.

And as such are not likely to get paid work, or interact with society.

Whether this or other issues lead to drug addiction I dont know, but hasn't there been good results from Scotland where they treat drug addiction as a health issue rather than a crime.

IwantToRetire · 07/10/2024 17:38

The cynic is me thinks that whilst there are campaigners who genuinely think women shouldn't be put in prison, I suspect the decision makers like it as an idea as for them it would be cost saving.

SerendipityJane · 07/10/2024 17:42

IwantToRetire · 07/10/2024 17:36

Although this is a derail, as I dont think it applies to women, over 50% of male prisoners cant or can only barely read or write.

And as such are not likely to get paid work, or interact with society.

Whether this or other issues lead to drug addiction I dont know, but hasn't there been good results from Scotland where they treat drug addiction as a health issue rather than a crime.

Funnily enough, I was chatting with a friend recently, and following a discussion about "when libel trials go wrong", Jeffrey Archer had a dishonourable mention.

When he was banged up, he pretty much nailed the 80% part of the 80/20 problem within a few milliseconds. And it was centred around lack of literacy and numeracy. If memory serves he was quite a penal reformer for a while.

RethinkingLife · 07/10/2024 20:28

Excellent, insightful piece.

Thank you.

OP posts:
Viviennemary · 07/10/2024 20:30

Christinapple · 06/10/2024 12:36

Prison doesn't "work" for almost anyone F or M.

Putting a bunch of criminals together under one roof where they become conditioned to violence and each other tends to make them less suited for fitting in to general society.

Exactly. I wouldn't say it was a problem just for women prisoners.

RethinkingLife · 08/10/2024 09:02

Viviennemary · 07/10/2024 20:30

Exactly. I wouldn't say it was a problem just for women prisoners.

As women's prisons are at much smaller scale+, they might be a useful way to pilot short to medium term innovations. However, the dynamics of incarcerated women may well be very different so improvements there might not be as feasible or effective in the men's estate.

As above PPs indicate, fixing housing, the care system, education etc. will take much longer but be of benefit to the whole of society. I don't know when any politicians will be able to overlook the 5 year election cycle to achieve this. As Million Dollar Murray indicates, the cost of not addressing the source of these problems is eye-wateringly expensive and poor value for everyone, in addition to being a tragedy for those at the heart of it.

+I don't know about the relative size of the non-custodial offender management system but it would seem plausible that it's smaller as well.

OP posts:
missmollygreen · 08/10/2024 21:03

Igmum · 06/10/2024 16:29

Glad to see this, but it has been an issue for many years. Women rarely commit crimes but, when they do, courts judge them more harshly and sentence them more severely than they would men.

You have to be joking?

Men are 3.4 times more likely than women to be sent to prison for the same crime, men receive sentences which are 1.64 times longer than womens for the same crime.

Igmum · 08/10/2024 21:14

Disagree. Men are imprisoned for violence. Women seldom commit violence.

I'd be interested in the source of your statistics.

RMNofTikTok · 08/10/2024 21:36

I worked in female estate for 2 years.

The vast majority of female prisoners are in prison as the consequence of DA, eg, they were forced to use drugs, pimped, beaten unless they shoplifted etc.

They do not need prison - they need a safe home and therapy.

RethinkingLife · 09/10/2024 08:54

Men are 3.4 times more likely than women to be sent to prison for the same crime, men receive sentences which are 1.64 times longer than womens for the same crime.

ChatGPT seems to be reproducing from these paper, among others. Some interesting analyses of specific offences. The 2nd link is about the Crown Court setting which will reflect more serious sentencing possibilities.

Based on the gender effect estimated in these models we can now establish that, for offences of assault, male offenders are 2.84 times more likely to receive a custodial sentence than female offenders. This is the gender effect estimated when the same offence is committed, featuring the same harm, culpability, aggravating and mitigating factors, whether a guilty plea was entered at first opportunity, and having - approximately - the same number of previous convictions. For offences of burglary and drugs the odds ratios were 1.89, and 2.72 for drugs.

There is some discussion about disparities and whether these have utilitarian value (are women less likely to pose a threat to society).

Lastly, from a retributive perspective, the observed disparities might be justified on the basis of the higher harm experienced by women in and after custody. While in prison women are nearly twice as likely as men to be identified as suffering from depression (Player, 2014) and five times more likely to self-harm (Corston, 2007; MoJ, 2018). This is likely exacerbated by the existence of fewer female prisons makes it more likely for female offenders to be housed further away from home, which renders visits more difficult, making it harder to maintain ties and facilitate resettlement into community. Half of all women receive no visits compared to a quarter of men, and most women have neither a home or a job upon release (Player, 2014). Lastly, a more merciful approach that takes into account the generally more troubled past of female offenders could also be legitimately invoked as part of retributive considerations. For example, approximately 70% of women coming into custody require clinical detoxification compared to 50% of men. (Corston, 2007), while twice as many women in prison report having experienced emotional, physical or sexual abuse as a child compared to men (Minson, 2015). In summary, we believe that the estimated gender disparities can be justified in terms of the higher harm produced to women, and, more partially, for reasons of offender rehabilitation and dangerousness. As such, our findings should not be interpreted as evidence of discrimination against male offenders. Having said that, if we take into consideration the non-negligible extent of the disparities detected, our findings should also refute the widely held belief of sentencing in England and Wales being gender neutral.

As ever, there's a need for much better data. I could use some specificity about relative numbers of offenders for the offences explored and whether or not there are 'gendered' offences where dominate the offender category. E.g., sex work.

https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/209890205/Gender_gap.pdf

https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/154388/14/Gender%20Discrimination_23%20August.pdf

https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/209890205/Gender_gap.pdf

OP posts:
RMNofTikTok · 09/10/2024 09:53

96% of people convicted for violent offences are male. The vast majority of the violent offences are linked to DV.

99% of people convicted for sexual offences are male.

I'm sure undiagnosed TBI plays a massive part in male pattern offending. However so does patriarchy and misogyny.

Female prisoners are far more vulnerable!

RMNofTikTok · 15/10/2024 00:06

Saw this appear on tiktok and thought it would be of interest to this thread

vm.tiktok.com/ZGdewwfvn/

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