Transgender identity to be recognised across whole EU bloc

[Sandwichgen]

Can’t link, but a European court has just ruled that if someone is recognised as the other sex in their home state, they must be recognised as such across all EU states

rumania was a hold out on this

Then we can pass an act to remove us being bound - no parliament can bind its successor in the UK. We are not bound by any other EU laws that happened while we were in the EU - that was the point of leaving.

We could, but I suspect SKS's instinct will be to go along with anything a judge says. I'm not sure that he's got to grips with the idea that the Prime Minister is not a superpowered DPP.

So suppose the UK wanted to repeal the GRA or add legislation that restricted name changes in the case that the individual failed DBS, how would that be affected by this ruling?

The issue here is that this person got their GRC when the UK was still de facto part of the EU (the UK left on 31 January 2020 but in practice every EU law still applied until 31 December of that year). So that means that as far as Romania is concerned, they have to recognise it as an EU certificate.

If the individual had got their GRC in the UK in 2021, Romania would not have been under any obligation to recognise it, because it would not have been issued by a (de facto) EU member state.

This case seems to be about Romania's recognition of the document that was issued by the UK. Nothing in the judgement suggests that the UK has (today) to accept the equivalent certificates issued by EU member states.

So the EU can demand that within member states someones legal gender/sex change is recognised everywhere in the blic. Presumably, they can’t demand that someone with legally changed gender be treated, in all, circumstances, as their new legal gender. E.g, it is not given that men with new legal genders be allowed in women-only spaces.

I think in terms of this ruling, that's correct.

But I don't have a hard time imagining they might push for uniformity across member states in the other sense too, if the right case was brought.

Of FFS. No that's not the way the EU normally works, not in the slightest - even if the Daily Mail would have you believe otherwise. The rules that emerge are whatever a majority on the Council of Mjnisters decide (a majority that in the past extremely often included the UK, I may note) unless like in this case its through an ECJ ruling. Incidentally, the first ECJ ruling to make a real splash, the much-quoted Cassis de Dijon case, went against ..... ta da! German regulators who had resisted opening the German market to said beverage. And finally, where'd yiu get the daft idea that the colour of EU passports is somehow a German conspiracy? Pre-EU German passports were green 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I wouldn't be surprised to find this sort of nonsense on AIBU, but it's a bit of an embarrassment for FWR.

What is the UK bound to do? The headline from an article about this posted earlier is EU States Must Recognise Gender Changes Obtained In Bloc

We're no longer in the EU, so we're not one of the EU states which has to recognise gender changes in EU states for the purpose of freedom of movement within the EU (which doesn't include the UK).

The only part that applies to the UK is that gender changes acquired in the UK under the UK GRA prior to Brexit are considered in the EU to be a gender change in an EU state. That's it. The UK isn't compelled to recognise anything other than our own GRA.

According to some academics, this would result in the end of the Good Friday Agreement and possibly life as we know it. So pipe down, wims! The men are deciding!

I’m not often glad that we’ve left the EU, but as several EU countries have introduced self-ID, I’m glad we are not to be forced to accept their certification.

I suspect that, for now, the UK will anyway, but it can be speedily reversed if the reality of self-ID proves to be as bad as I expect it will.

You can bet your life, that if that is indeed the case, TRAs are already chomping at the bit, filing all the necessary paperwork to make changes.

We may be resisting up to a point here, in the UK, but that won't stop them trying to get round it.

Wonder if Hungary will go along with it.

Isn't most of this tied up with free movement. A transgender person is at a distinct disadvantage if their paperwork is not accepted in all countries within the EU. They would, in effect, have to have copies stating sex and copies stating gender. I suspect mission creep will be tried. I think our borders do recognise GRC's from certain, but not all countries.

If this affected us it would be in the realms of retrospective law and that wouldn't be acceptable, either to the EU or us.

Isn't most of this tied up with free movement. A transgender person is at a distinct disadvantage if their paperwork is not accepted in all countries within the EU. They would, in effect, have to have copies stating sex and copies stating gender.

That's exactly what it's about, which is why it doesn't affect the UK.

From the ECJ ruling:
“The refusal of a Member State to recognise a change of gender identity lawfully acquired in another Member State hinders the exercise of the right to free movement and residence.”

There's more about it in this article:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/04/eu-states-must-recognise-transgender-identities-court-rules/

The Hungarian government isn't impressed.

According to the Telegraph, Hungary, Slovakia and Bulgaria have bans on or plan to ban people from legally changing their gender. But they're going to be compelled to recognise changes of "gender" obtained in other EU states, including those with self ID. How is that going to work?

The refusal of a Member State to recognise a change of gender identity lawfully acquired in another Member State hinders the exercise of the right to free movement and residence.

Or, conversely, a Member State granting the ability to falsify sex will hinder the exercise of the right to free movement for anyone choosing to do this. Fake ID is liable to cause issues.

There is a more obvious solution than forcing people to accept fake ID.

I would think that might be on the cards, if not immediately, then soon. The EU is properly captured - or rather, Brussels is.

I imagine there are people on the look out for good cases.

This is the natural and inevitable effect of any kind of administrative union, in my experience. Differences between elements become problematic or even just annoying, and so rules creating uniformity are developed. So you get creep, where the larger body becomes more fundamental than the smaller elements.

I think this happens whether you are talking about a business or a country or a social club. It can be controlled but it requires carefully imposed limits (which is why federalist systems of government have such strict and defined areas of responsibility.)

Neither of the processes you mention are particularly democratic. Decisions by officials in private, not open to debate, and court rulings. I agree with you. That is just how the EU works.

I'm actually not going to try and explain again because it seems you want to see it the wrong way round to make some sort of statement.

This is about the time frame when the legal action first started.

Bound if quite a normal way of saying you have agree to something or a set of principles (in the relevant time period)

Its pointless going on about it.

More relevant would be a discussion about what the UK should to now that we have Brexited but many have citizens of EU countries expecting us to recognise the GR acquired in their own country.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories

I'm actually not going to try and explain again because it seems you want to see it the wrong way round to make some sort of statement.

I could have said exactly the same to you @IwantToRetire, but I decided not to because I thought it would be rude to do so.

Exactly what do you think the UK is compelled to do by the EU according to a law which says that EU countries have to recognise the acquired gender of other EU citizens to facilitate freedom of movement within the EU?

This is about the UK process for acquiring a GRA in the UK. Nothing to do with the EU law.

The list includes countries such as Australia, China and South Africa, none of which are in the EU. In fact very few of the countries on the list are in the EU. It's a list of countries which allow holders of GRCs in other countries to be fast-tracked when applying for a GRC in the UK. This has always been the case for some countries, but the list changes from time to time.

Why did you post this link?