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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Moira Deeming defamation trial - Thread 2 from Australia

1000 replies

TheSandgroper · 24/09/2024 10:54

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5167282-in-australia-moira-deeming-defamation-trial-now-on?page=40&reply=138525746

Tribunal Tweets Substack https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/moira-deeming-v-john-pesutto-a-case?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share. Thanks to @BezMills

Thanks to everyone on thread 1. I am pleased it generated such interest and conversations. I have learnt a lot from many very bright women.

Page 40 | In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on | Mumsnet

[[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-deeming-john-pesutto-defamation-trial-day-two/104360100 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-de...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5167282-in-australia-moira-deeming-defamation-trial-now-on?page=40&reply=138525746

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
Shortshriftandlethal · 25/09/2024 11:25

Pesutto and all of the others who prioritise TWAW above most everything else really don't seem to be able to see the pattern of their own thinking until it is dismantled in front of them.

BezMills · 25/09/2024 11:25

Datun · 25/09/2024 11:22

JP -That doesn’t mean that their [the women’s ] comments weren’t abusive

does he say what comments could be abusive? Or is it just a ... vague suggestion?

It's all a bit 'we just don't know that CF wasn't [insert vague insinuation such as behind the exploding pagers in Lebanon], we simply don't know

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2024 11:25

As he claims not to have watched the video, it's hard to see how he can state this so confidently.

BezMills · 25/09/2024 11:45

He's a shifty so & so!

We're witnessing the antipodean Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson if you ask me.

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 11:48

NotBadConsidering · 25/09/2024 09:44

“You said that the authors of the safe school program were, quote, putting pedophilic garbage in our school curriculums. You said that?”
“Yep,’’ she replied.

Those are controversial views. UK politicians from mainstream parties would not say such things.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/children-at-risk-from-predators-on-government-website-20150721-gihjgz.html

Through the Safe Schools Hub, students are given the opportunity to "find out about" homophobia, and coming out. When they click on the relevant page, they are taken to the websites of Youth Central, and the Safe Schools Coalition, as well as an associated site, Minus18, which describes itself as "Australia's largest network for LGBT youth".

Whatever else Minus18 is, it functions as an online dating site. Users register by answering questions such as age, sexual identity, outness, gender, location and preferences, and can search profiles of other members. Users can then connect online.
Carol Ronken of Bravehearts has looked carefully at the Minus18 website and issued the strong warning that "without appropriate oversight and administration, sex offenders can and will exploit these sites to target vulnerable youth".

Given this is a website aimed at teenagers younger than 18, there are no checks to ensure that users are of a similar age. A perusal of the profiles on the site suggests many of the users are aged between 14 and 16.

In spite of Minus18 supposedly having a rule that users over the age of 25 are not permitted to utilise the forums "without direct permission from Minus18" there are literally scores of users older than this on the website.

Minus18 does not enforce its own rules. When this was put to Tim Christadoulou, the Relationships Manager at Minus18, he stated that "rather than actively refuse registrations for certain age groups, we respond to individual profiles and users on a case-by-case basis".

Even this is dubious. Minus18 management was unable to answer how many users were refused registration in the past 12 months. That is particularly disturbing given some of the profiles from men aged 30 and over who seem to have an interest in underage users.

One 30-year-old man said he was looking for "fun fun fun" and described himself as "a man like a tiger nice". I don't know about a tiger, but he certainly seemed predatory. And lest there be any misunderstanding about his intentions, he provided a number of semi-naked photos to make it clear.

Another user was a 31-year-old secondary school teacher from Leichhardt in Sydney who was implausibly looking to network with other schools and youth organisations. One would have thought a simple Google search would have been easier.

And then there was the 36-year-old man from Birmingham, Alabama, who registered last month and was "into guys". I cannot imagine what reason a 36-year-old man from the United States would have joining a website full of teenagers in Australia, but it can't be a good one. Whatever it is, though, he helpfully provided a Facebook page and phone number.

In what way is what Deeming said controversial, given what she said is accurate? Do you think having safeguarding concerns based on the above information, shared by Bravehearts, is “controversial”?

By implying people were paedophiles and calling them paedophile apologists.

She can make her points without using unfair accusations. It's serious to imply someone is a paedophile and quite irresponsible of a politician.

She didn't like a much less direct implication being made about her, in fact she's suing over it.

Datun · 25/09/2024 11:49

Shortshriftandlethal · 25/09/2024 11:25

Pesutto and all of the others who prioritise TWAW above most everything else really don't seem to be able to see the pattern of their own thinking until it is dismantled in front of them.

Indeed.

It's so ingrained, they think it's completely normal and there's nothing to account for.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2024 11:50

More comment from Angie Jones:

https://x.com/angijones/status/1838866863234986450

So one poorly expressed tweet and some air commas by a haggard middle aged feminist had the potential to make the Liberals lose the next state election?
Thought we were fringe radicals who had no influence over public discourse?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2024 11:54

From the Guardian in 2016

https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/mar/16/george-christensen-accuses-safe-schools-advocate-of-promoting-paedophilia

He alleged Dowsett was a “long-time advocate of intergenerational sex, otherwise known as paedophilia” and quoted from a 1982 article in the quarterly newsletter, “Gay information”, that equated the touch of a parent to that between a paedophile and child.
The information was first brought to light by the conservative group, the Australian Family Association.
I think it would shock many parents to learn that a paedophilia advocate was overseeing the organisation that came up with the Safe Schools programs,” Christensen told the House of Representatives. “It’s imperative all federal funding be suspended to Safe Schools pending a full parliamentary inquiry.”
Dowsett has been contacted for comment about the article, which was written in 1982 and which has been seen by Guardian Australia.

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 11:57

MarieDeGournay · 25/09/2024 10:30

CassieMaddox It was about the fact that the board was almost all trans stuff after being a place for discussion of wider feminist issues (y'know, boring things like rape culture, the gender pay gap, enforced dress codes, women freezing in Tibet because they got banished on their periods).

Being new-ish to MN and FWR, I don't know about all the split boards stuff, but if the intention was to divert 'all trans stuff' to FWR leaving 'boring things like rape culture..' etc behind, that clearly hasn't worked, because FWR has lots of discussions about rape, violence against women, global misogyny, inequality at work, enforced norms of behaviour etc.

'Trans stuff' is so central to the current version of militant misogyny that, and so pervasive - education, the law, safety, medicine, words... - that it's impossible to separate it from wider feminist issues.

The very meaning of the words 'women' and 'girls' in discussions of wider feminist issues has been fundamentally altered by the 'trans stuff', which has appropriated those words to include men.

There is no stormwater run-off for 'trans stuff', it has soaked in too deeply.

In some senses yes. But the complete domination of the issue, and the fact it attracts people who are "sex realist" but not feminist means this has changed to a space focussed on sex realism, not feminism and they aren't the same thing.

Meanwhile other aspects of feminism (such as the complete explosion of rape culture and the effective decriminalisation of rape) aren't getting anything like the attention they could be, because we are distracted by trans issues.

Bring it up and the line is always "how can you protect womens rights if you can't say what a woman is?" Which is actually not true. No males in Tibet are ever going to freeze to death because they are on their "unclean" period. No males in America are going to die of sepsis because abortion is criminalised. No males in the UK are going to be "pregnant then screwed". It's entirely possible to focus on GC AND feminism, but you wouldn't think so in the current climate.

I often think MRAs and women haters must be loving this turn of events, because we are now fighting amongst ourselves instead of challenging their views.

I find it very sad.

Helleofabore · 25/09/2024 12:00

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2024 11:50

More comment from Angie Jones:

https://x.com/angijones/status/1838866863234986450

So one poorly expressed tweet and some air commas by a haggard middle aged feminist had the potential to make the Liberals lose the next state election?
Thought we were fringe radicals who had no influence over public discourse?

This wraps it up quite well actually.

So much investment has been expended by Pesutto and his leadership team over Moira Deeming's stance on supporting women and children against the negative impacts of gender identity that surely questions do have to asked.

Was this a massive virtue signalling exercise to parts of the party and to pressure groups within the the Victorian electorate? And has it worked, if it was?

It also was very surprising to hear the amount of fear that the team expressed by Dan Andrew's reaction. It felt farcical in the audio of the meeting.

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 25/09/2024 12:16

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 11:48

By implying people were paedophiles and calling them paedophile apologists.

She can make her points without using unfair accusations. It's serious to imply someone is a paedophile and quite irresponsible of a politician.

She didn't like a much less direct implication being made about her, in fact she's suing over it.

She didn’t imply people were paedophiles. That’s your inference. Do you think that calling people who author a document that allows paedophiles access to children paedophile apologists is a “controversial view”?

Politicians raising safeguarding concerns in the wrong tone is not acceptable to you?

NotBadConsidering · 25/09/2024 12:25

And I note you don’t take any care to address she is absolutely right about Safe Schools and its safeguarding failures. You can’t acknowledge she’s correct, you’re only bothered by the manner in which she raised the issue. Do you think she and others are correct to be concerned about Safe Schools, given the reporting I linked, regardless of the manner in which it is raised or brought to people’s attention, or whether that is befitting a person’s job?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2024 12:44

Apologies if it has already been posted.

I don't think so, but I did post a link on the first thread to Stassja's podcast "Desexing Society" where she interviews MD about her opposition to Safe Schools.

Datun · 25/09/2024 13:10

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 11:57

In some senses yes. But the complete domination of the issue, and the fact it attracts people who are "sex realist" but not feminist means this has changed to a space focussed on sex realism, not feminism and they aren't the same thing.

Meanwhile other aspects of feminism (such as the complete explosion of rape culture and the effective decriminalisation of rape) aren't getting anything like the attention they could be, because we are distracted by trans issues.

Bring it up and the line is always "how can you protect womens rights if you can't say what a woman is?" Which is actually not true. No males in Tibet are ever going to freeze to death because they are on their "unclean" period. No males in America are going to die of sepsis because abortion is criminalised. No males in the UK are going to be "pregnant then screwed". It's entirely possible to focus on GC AND feminism, but you wouldn't think so in the current climate.

I often think MRAs and women haters must be loving this turn of events, because we are now fighting amongst ourselves instead of challenging their views.

I find it very sad.

And yet, despite advocating to split the boards up, you spend all your time on this board, the one actually hived off for gender issues - at your own behest!

BoreOfWhabylon · 25/09/2024 13:12

Full notes on proceedings (not verbatim) by raloralo on X
https://filebin.net/n5qt9stbci8yn0vb
Not looking good for Pesutto. I suspect his leadership days are numbered.

Filebin | n5qt9stbci8yn0vb

Convenient file sharing. Registration is not required. Large files are supported.

https://filebin.net/n5qt9stbci8yn0vb

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2024 13:16

Yes I posted an excerpt upthread, I haven't seen any other transcripts of the morning and first part of the afternoon, but I listened to the morning section myself.

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 13:17

Datun · 25/09/2024 10:54

Indeed.

FWR (as it was called then), was relentlessly targeted precisely because of the trans issue. Women were becoming very much informed, and it was spreading out to other places online and more groups were being set up on the back of it. (Maya Forstater, Man Friday, Posie Parker - in fact almost all the women's groups have a connection to Mumsnet).

So Mumsnet advertisers were ferociously targeted to shut it down and Justine had to make ever tighter and stricter rules. She even allowed outside people, ie not members of Mumsnet, to report posts and get them deleted. Hence wanky TRAs on Twitter crowing that they were getting women deleted left, right and centre on here.

It was a horrible knife edge for everyone concerned and it looked as though FWR might go entirely. And indeed, many highly valuable women fell foul of the new rules and were kicked off permanently.

At the same time, some Mumsnet members also wanted to close the board down. Ostensibly because too many threads were about the trans issue. Apparently it wasn't considered that big of a deal to deserve so much attention. And other feminist issues were falling through the cracks. Although, it has to be said, given the previous targeting, there was a lot of cynicism about people's motivation.

And the prediction was that if you hive off gender discussions, it would just become the main board again anyway, because this new, highly dangerous threat to women is one of the main reasons a lot of women were posting in the first place.

And sure enough that's exactly what happened. The 'no trans discussion allowed' feminism board doesn't get much traffic. Certainly the apparently huge number of members who wanted it don't appear to be propping it up.

And here we all are!

Yes. That's why saying mn is a "hidden corner of the internet" was ridiculous.

The other bit you missed off (maybe a bit before your time) was the phase where the mods moved everything trans related into FWR. In my opinion that really changed the nature of the board.

Anyway ancient history now

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 13:19

NotBadConsidering · 25/09/2024 12:16

She didn’t imply people were paedophiles. That’s your inference. Do you think that calling people who author a document that allows paedophiles access to children paedophile apologists is a “controversial view”?

Politicians raising safeguarding concerns in the wrong tone is not acceptable to you?

Did you read the statement she gave in court that I quoted?
I found it an interesting juxtaposition that she is suing someone alleging they implied she's a nazi (by association) yet happy to agree she called the authors of the report "paedophile apologists".

It's hypocritical.

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 13:24

Datun · 25/09/2024 13:10

And yet, despite advocating to split the boards up, you spend all your time on this board, the one actually hived off for gender issues - at your own behest!

I requested it four years before it happened so I could read feminist conversations and GC conversations. As feminism that wasn't GC related was getting lost. You can see that in the thread I linked - my request to MNHQ.

I continued posting here afterwards but not as frequently.

I can post where I like and really don't like the repeated undermining and implications.

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 13:26

To get back to the trial, I'm still none the wiser what the actual defamation was meant to be. Is it the interview he gave straight after the rally?

NotBadConsidering · 25/09/2024 13:30

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 13:19

Did you read the statement she gave in court that I quoted?
I found it an interesting juxtaposition that she is suing someone alleging they implied she's a nazi (by association) yet happy to agree she called the authors of the report "paedophile apologists".

It's hypocritical.

So you don’t care about the paedophiles accessing children via the Safe Schools documents and the facilitation of that by the authors through poor safeguarding practices? ConfusedConfused

I presume not, given I’ve asked you directly to address this part and you’ve ignored it and focused on perceiving Deeming as hypocritical.

Got it.

Datun · 25/09/2024 13:34

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 13:24

I requested it four years before it happened so I could read feminist conversations and GC conversations. As feminism that wasn't GC related was getting lost. You can see that in the thread I linked - my request to MNHQ.

I continued posting here afterwards but not as frequently.

I can post where I like and really don't like the repeated undermining and implications.

And I really don't like you framing my comments in such a biased way.

You said yourself the reason you're following this is because of KJK. Nothing to do with me, and everything to do with your own admission.

I don't like you trying to undermine women who are tackling the trans issue. On the sex and gender board.

You are, of course, perfectly welcome to undermine women who are tackling this issue, and I am equally perfectly at liberty to address it.

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 13:43

Datun · 25/09/2024 13:34

And I really don't like you framing my comments in such a biased way.

You said yourself the reason you're following this is because of KJK. Nothing to do with me, and everything to do with your own admission.

I don't like you trying to undermine women who are tackling the trans issue. On the sex and gender board.

You are, of course, perfectly welcome to undermine women who are tackling this issue, and I am equally perfectly at liberty to address it.

Eh? How am I framing your comments in a biased way?
I'm saying (with supporting evidence) why I asked MNHQ to separate the boards, to counter your assertion "And yet, despite advocating to split the boards up, you spend all your time on this board, the one actually hived off for gender issues - at your own behest!". Because it's incorrect. It is an example of you projecting your incorrect assumption as fact. Others have been doing it too.

My assumption is you are saying that because you feel I am posting here in bad faith, not interested in trans issues and therefore should bugger off to "feminism chat" (where noone posts really).

Whereas the truth is I post here because there are threads on topics I want to discuss (like this trial). My reasons for being interested are irrelevant. I'm a GC feminist (so on the right board) interested in the trial (so on the right thread).

I can only interpret this as trying to shut me down or drive me off the thread. No dice for you unfortunately.

CassieMaddox · 25/09/2024 13:48

NotBadConsidering · 25/09/2024 13:30

So you don’t care about the paedophiles accessing children via the Safe Schools documents and the facilitation of that by the authors through poor safeguarding practices? ConfusedConfused

I presume not, given I’ve asked you directly to address this part and you’ve ignored it and focused on perceiving Deeming as hypocritical.

Got it.

Don't be so ridiculous.

Going around calling people you don't share an opinion with "paedophiles" is exactly the same behaviour as calling them "Nazis". Neither is acceptable if you want to have a respectful debate. I think using loaded terms like that is controversial, regardless of the topic at hand.

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