If you choose to be a lesbian, are you a lesbian or a bi-sexual woman? - guest post on Julie Bindel substack

[IwantToRetire]

The joy of choosing to become a lesbian
A guest post, by lesbian, feminist, author and publisher, Renate Klei
https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/the-joy-of-choosing-to-become-a-lesbian

This has made quite a few women, quite cross!

Surely she should call it celibacy, since she's not advocating sexual activity between women? It's just avoiding men.

Very much agree with you. I had a big argument with DP (straight) about this - who insists "its not a choice". But what if you're bi? but want to be monogamous?

I had a massive crush on a girl at school, which now I put down to feeling awkward around her + hormones. I'm also probably bi/wanna be lesbian but in a happy straight relationship. What does that make me? Straight I would think, otherwise I'm offending all the actual lesbians in actual lesbian relationships. So I would go for the definition of your sexuality being whatever your relationship is in. Except that's not really the correct definition either is it. Which means labels shouldn't be taken all that seriously... ie it's complicated and there's nothing wrong with any of it.

It might just be more fluid in women than men? The "not a choice" narrative might apply for men a bit more... (but they also tend to be in a more privileged positions)

I think there's a lot of short-handed vernacular that is lost to people who haven't explored and discussed this concept before. Lesbianism is about sexual attraction, but that makes people squeamish, so it's glossed over and used to describe woman-centred women also. "Dear friends" "Lavender marriages" "Female separatists" and soforth.

A political lesbian could very well be a lazy way to describe a celibate straight woman who chooses to eschew close relationships with men in any form, or only patronises woman-owned business, doesn't hire male plumbers etc. Because people think gay sex is yucky.

Like I said upthread, I was able to use the concept of political lesbianism to open the door in my own mind and recognise that I've been lesbian my whole life but couldn't let myself recognise it for many reasons. So I was glad of the chance to think about being lesbian in a different way. But in many ways, the concept erases lesbian experience by saying it's a free choice. It isn't a choice. It is incredibly disrespectful of the women and men who have struggled with living authentically in times and places where being themselves meant they were hounded, jailed, lost jobs, or lost their lives. This is no choice. To breezily pick it up and put it back down again is shitty.

I suppose that's why there's all these other terms like gender fluid etc. to not encroach on the term lesbian.

If only!

Yeah it does feel more certain for men but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe because of their drive to spread their seed etc

However now I've had my kids I feel far more attracted to women, it's a mix of genuine longing and attraction plus sick of men. I don't know if men ever feel the latter about women

I've always been bi but now I'm in my 40s other bi and lesbian women are more confident in flirting and making it known which helps

Well said. I find calling celibacy or having a female-centred life "lesbianism" rather insulting to actual lesbians, erasing the "sexual" part of "sexual orientation" and skirting perilously close to the whole "you can choose, ergo you can change at will" and "women don't have any real sexual desires anyway" attitudes. I know I am not a lesbian in any sense of the word, because I don't and never have felt attraction to women, only to men. I've never acted on it, but all that makes me is celibate.

I find calling celibacy or having a female-centred life "lesbianism" rather insulting to actual lesbians, erasing the "sexual" part of "sexual orientation"

I take your point, Catsmere, but when I read about female 'close friends' who were never parted, like the Ladies of Llangollen for example, I just assume their relationship was sexual, at least at some point. It wasn't acknowledged at the time because it was inconvenient to wider society, but the idea that two women who loved each other and spent their entire lives together 24/7 never, like, 'got it on', is hard to believe.

The discovery of the Anne Lister diaries disproved the idea that in days of yore women who loved women were just Romantic super-pals who had lots of chaste sleepovers. Disproved it with a capital D, in fact😛and I think that made it possible to read actual getting-it-on lesbianism into historical 'female-centred lives'. More likely than not. Or at least as likely as not.

Interesting discussion. I'm an "always known since I was a little girl of 8 but it was just girl crushes then" lesbian. I understood my sexuality as an adolescent.

We need to realize that for Western Europe in ancient Classical times, it was socially normal that men and women were same-sex and opposite-sex attracted. So people were just assumed to be bisexual (that term is from the 19th century). Those exclusively attracted to the same sex were a small number.

It was Judeo-Christian religion that was against same-sex sexual activity and changed the social narrative for about 2,000 years and brainwashed people that it was oh so wrong.. In my opinion probably men and women are naturally bisexual, same-sex attracted women and men are and always have been a small minority.

I think these late bloomers are women and men who've managed to throw off their social conditioning and are normal bisexuals.
.

The article, and its gleeful promotion by prominent feminists, to me is reminiscent of the articles written about trans widows exes and promoted by their allies.

@MarieDeGournay yes, but I'm talking about now, and the continued erasure.

Sexuality is not a choice, your lifestyle is a choice.

I'm straight, and have known I was straight from as early as I can remember (also had a crush on a teacher in P5...so 9 years old).

A previous poster said they were straight for 45 years, and bi for four. Disagree. She had a straight lifestyle for 45 years, she has always been bi but just didn't know it.

Like this quote from another poster...."I see it as nature triumphing over half a lifetime of heteronormative misdirected nurturing."

I wonder how much our drive to reproduce has us searching out men so we believe we are heterosexual but once we have our children or reach menopause our true attraction to women is revealed?

That was me. I disagree it was just a 'straight lifestyle'. I was genuinely not attracted to women. Now I am. It makes more sense to me that one's sexuality can change than that I was subconsciously bisexual while not actually being attracted to women.

I do agree with the previous poster that women can often discover attraction for the same sex around the time their reproductive years are drawing to a close.

Maybe it's due to when we lived in tribes. It made sense to be attracted to men when young and childless. With kids, it makes sense to live with other women. I mean think about your life with kids with other women to help out - just wow. I'm not sure the male/female couple in their households works well for women with children.

You say this as if you know all about human behaviour including the lived experiences of others.

That's a very interesting take on the topic, greenmeasuringtape. I can almost hear David Attenborough's commentary
'And once the females who have chosen to do so achieve motherhood, the young males are released back into the wild to attend football matches and Men's Sheds, while the females form mutually supportive groups, the adult females growing more and more involved with each other as the young reach maturity..
.

Surely it is a spectrum, with some lesbians totally disinterested in men (no choice), some women bi (it’s a choice which way you go) and then everything in between. I don’t see why the choicers and non-choicers should be at variance /encouraged to assert their way is the only way.

😂

Loved the skit on David Attenborough.
Similar to others I used to be in a straight marriage/conventional family.
Then changes inc divorce. Now a GF (for want of a concise phrase). We date, we stay overnight. We look just like other women in late 40s. No dramatic hairstyles or clothing.
I really don't feel I want to take a 'political' line about our relationship. It is not necessary for me to do so. I do fully respect the Lesbian POV and am horrified at some of the posts on the Sex Chat Boards about; "would like to try a threesome with another woman joining a couple". It is not like choosing positions for sex or with or without toys. Please, show some respect.

I have just come out as lesbian after a 20 year marriage. However I can't seem to meet the right girl! Any advice (i've tried dating apps but they are useless)