BBC on gender stereotypes through toys and clothing 😲

[lcakethereforeIam]

Came across this artifact on YouTube!

And the fact that you attribute his liking of sticks to innate boy-ness shows you are not a neutral influence yourself.

I have a theory that so called gender differences are overlapping Bell curves, similar to height but less difference between them.

As a woman who still has male-coded interests, I agree that as well as the interest, you also have to have the personality type of not giving a shit otherwise you get pushed out. Luckily I went to a girls school so never really got the message that maths and science weren't for girls until I was old enough not to care.

And there are a much wider range of influences on your child than just you. Perhaps you never made approving noises whe your daughter picked up a doll, or smiled just a bit more than when your son did. But other people around her will have. Even as a tiny baby, she noticed, and responded.

Gender roles and 'preferences' also differ over time and place, e.g. in matriarchal societies. So there's nothing innate, or wouldn't we see the same thing everywhere? And we don't.

I went to a bog standard mixed school and was oblivious to any of these subject stereotypes - I thought, if anything, girls were good at Maths and Science (partly because most of my friends were) because girls are studious and sensible and boys like to muck about too much. (This was way before Hermione and Ron! Possibly influenced by Enid Blyton though)

I don't really get the hype. There are gender differences in neuroanatomy and neuro chemistry? Boys and girls do play differently in general?

It's not to say girls don't play fight but as a whole they don't as much as boys. It's not to say boys aren't into dolls but as a whole they are less into dolls than girls.

There are gender differences in neuroanatomy and neuro chemistry?

Are there? Innate ones?

I think what you may not be getting is the point, rather than the 'hype'.

The thing is girls don't see girls playing with sticks so they don't. Boys do, whether thats at nursery, in books, on TV, in the street, in the playground. That socialisation surrounds them and teaches them what is expected of them.

Look, my child didn’t see this anywhere - I’ve explained why - very unique situation where he didn’t see any other kids anywhere and didn’t watch tv.

Im not saying this particular thing is because he is male (have said this repeatedly), but I am saying it’s innate and not as a result of socialisation or external pressures or encouragement from me or his dad. My point is that the way children play and what they like to play with cannot solely be explained by external factors.

Nature v nurture is a debate that is never likely to end. We can't ethically have control groups so we can't really gain data.

Logic suggests a mixture of both, to me.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying it isn't innate I'm just saying that you can't extrapolate that it isn't socialised out of girls. From the word go babies are taking in details about the world around them. Very few couples truly take an equal role in parenting especially if breastfeeding. In tiny little ways those roles are reinforced day by day. Its impossible to figure out what is nature and what is nurture because gender expectations are embedded deeply in society.

Playing with sticks is indeed innate - to children of both sexes in all species of great ape.

And dogs.

i had a boy dog which would carry a stick around at all times

i do not extrapolate that this means his joy in stick collecting is related to his sex.

interesting that pp puts her child’s love of sticks down to his sex- and not perhaps the unique nature of lockdown where the child might be more physically frustrated, have less access to enrichment so is finding it in his environment- where sticks are easily accessible. Possibly spending more time in the garden where he can be louder without being asked to stop- boys need to burn off that energy, right? Or one of the million other reasons why this child might like sticks.

plus going back to the video- parents often don’t realise they will ask girls to stop with rough play, to quiet down, to be redirected to a more sedate activity. Boys, meanwhile, will be boys and that behaviour less controlled.

The nature/nurture debate is an old one.
Were my ancestors artisans because they had innate ability or was it because they were given the opportunity?

One thing I will observe, I briefly helped in an elementary school, most children didn't know how to use a knife and fork and the basics of table etiquette. None of them knew how to use a skipping rope or to play 'outside' games. They struggled to tie laces and use zips and buttons. These skills are either modelled or taught through play, so I think the adults in our lives determine what we learn, our personalities and abilities determine how we learn.

There are all sorts of subtleties. Although some of us ignore which aisle we buy small children's clothes on to a greater of lesser extent, it's indisputably true that clothes inc footwear are heavily gendered. 'Girls clothes' are, on average, that bit less practical and robust than 'boys clothes'. Fabric, fit and even colours - when she was about 5 I got dd a twin pack of cotton jersey dresses, one pale pink, the other sludge green. She chose to wear the latter far more because it didn't show grass and mud stains.

True. I would not put my boys in a dress but I would put a girl in trousers.
Although saying that, I never stopped my younger son from wearing the pretty dresses in the dressing up box at toddler groups if he wanted to.

The dressing up box at home was a mix of things people gave us and book day / hallowe'en costumes. We had the obligatory spiderman suit (with padded pecs 😁) The morph suits and star wars robes were often used. The lab coats not so much. Peer pressure was notable from reception, also among the parents.

My toddler had a pixie hair cut- it was very fine and delicate and I’d learned from her sister short was better as tying it up damaged it. It was absolutely gorgeous, in fact she got scouted for a major London model agency as they loved her “look”, and she stood out from the blond long hair norm.

but the shit we got. People would stop me in the street and ask me why I’d allowed my little boy to go out dressed in his sisters clothes. A bunch of kids started on her, a 3 year old, in a swimming pool because she was wearing a girls swimming costume.

when she started school kids would lecture her on how she was a boy, and try and exclude her from girls activities. Fortunately the teachers- both women with short hair, had that sorted very quickly. Plus it quickly showed her who were her friends and who not.

in the playground if she wore a dress it was mind the little girl, ask her to move, be careful, does your mum know you’re going that high?. If I put her in trousers it was wow look at the little boy climb, isn’t he amazing, move out of his way.

people would actually correct me when I said she. Even dressed in a pink dress it would be “you mean he”.

i’d get lectures on how hard little boys are as toddlers, and I must be exhausted chasing him around, he was so active!. I’d be grateful in the teenage years though as girls were awful.

gender bias is so common- and most people don’t even realise they’re doing it.

We all bring a little bias to our lives. I still cannot comprehend the mentality that sees a child's clothing and toy preferences as a sign they were born in the wrong body.
We discovered a few years ago that our son has a disability that will require lifelong medical attention. I would take that away from him in a heartbeat if I could and am so angry at what is being done to physically healthy children and teenagers in the name of trans ideology.

Are you being sarcastic?

I don't think that was sarcasm.
If there are observed differences, how do we know if they are truly innate or if they acquired? We know that brains are 'plastic'.

There may be some genuine innate sexed differences, but do we know what, if any, 'gendered' behaviours they create?

One thing the rise of gender ideology has forced me to acknowledge is the role that gendering children in traditional societies plays in preparing boys for the huge changes that will come with puberty - they'll become adult males with all that agression and sexual drive. Traditional mores and child-rearing methods attempt to channel that, to form boys into men in a way that doesn't lead to sexual agression and menacing behaviour.
I don't know if I think it's the best way to parent / prepare kids for adulthood. But I can at least see the different perspective now, whereas I think thirty years ago I'd have basically had a radical feminist attitude to traditional cultures.

Amazing to read this - close match to my experience with my dd.
However, I am not convinced that energetic climbing and interest in "boys" toys is entirely due to stereotyped expectations. It might be amplified by them, though.
I've coached enough 3year olds to see a pattern where girls with older brothers are bolder and fitter than girls with older sisters. I've observed that older brothers will encourage younger siblings to jump from heights, challenge them to go faster, throw a ball further. They will call a sibling a "scaredy-cat". So the best girl athletes i have seen frequently seem to be younger sisters of brothers.

My 'anecdata' would support your observation of the role of elder brothers, which also supports my thoughts on learning through modelling examples I think.
I was very aware of the need for good role models and male support for my boys, particularly as their journey through puberty into adulthood would be so different to mine.

my dd is the eldest girl. And is an elite level athlete.

i am also a coach and while I agree with you, I do think stereotypes still contribute. Boys are encouraged to be active and daring due to adults attitudes.- as we see on the bbc o/p people don’t even realise they’re redirecting boys to active toys and physical play, and girls to caring roll play, dolls etc.

having older brothers negates the stereotyping influence as girls copy their brothers, and are more influenced by them than adults encouraging them to play nicely.

in my own family this would follow- my dad wanted boys but as the eldest girl I was the one taken to sports classes, encouraged to go against the girl stereotypes and allowed to climb trees and test my physical limits. In turn I encouraged my dd’s to climb and explore, I would rather go to the park or a climbing wall than sit and draw. I took her to football, to gymnastics, swimming, she tried everything. Funnily enough it’s dh that is the artist and hates heights 😂

one massive influence with sport I did see with girls with elder brothers- I coached in a sports centre. Nearly every girl I had was there because her older brother was in football and my class was basically a sibling babysitter 😂. While the parents went to watch the future premier leaguer. Whatever the reason though, girls with older brothers had more opportunity because they were already in that sport environment.

I agree completely with the last few posts

Additionally, most people re-use clothes and toys, there would be less pushback about re-using young boys clothes for a girl than vice versa.