A question about chromosomes

[PlanetJanette]

The furore over the olympics raises some odd conclusions.

Various folk saying that the fact that someone has XY chromosomes means they are a man. But these are the same people who say that men can’t get pregnant, men can’t have a cervix, can’t menstruate etc.

But of course people with DSDs that involve having XY chromosomes can get pregnant, in at least some cases. They can have cervices in some cases. They can menstruate in some cases.

So a question for those who insist on a black and white claim that those with XY chromosomes are men - do they think those with Swyer Syndrome who get pregnant are pregnant men? Or menstruating men? Or men with cervices?

Not saying this will answer OP's question, but just seen that in light of this Sex Matters have released a briefing paper

Sport and DSDs (disorders of sex development)
https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Womens-sport-and-DSDs.pdf

And this very thoughtful tweet from For Women Scotland:

For Women Scotland

We realise there will be understandable anger today with the shameful decision of @ iocmedia to obfuscate the status of the previously banned boxers.

We urge, however, that people remain respectful about the potentially devastating conditions which may lay behind this. There will be people raised as girls who suddenly find they are, genuinely, going through the "wrong" or a different puberty. In many cases, this will not result in a "full" masculinisation - for example in those with PAIS. Their lives will be complex (it is, of course, another instance where TRAs steal from the lives of those with DSDs).

None of this means there should not be rules in sport. There absolutely should, for anyone who has experienced any sort of male puberty and is responsive to testosterone. But please be mindful that they may not have the same background as men who have gone through a typical male puberty (Hubbard, Bridges) and are knowingly cheating.

We believe the IOC has behaved with wicked irresponsibility, primarily to women who will have to face athletes with biological advantage, but also in a failure to conduct sensitive discussions about DSDs. They have also opened the door to the unscrupulous who will exploit this situation.

https://x.com/ForWomenScot/status/1818929181880614983

The boxers don’t have Swyer syndrome- they aren’t men who look like, and perform similarly to, women.

People with Swyer syndrome are XY men, as are these boxers who don’t have Swyer syndrome.

I’m not sure what’s hard to understand, DammitJanet! Love the name, incidentally. Been singing ‘Ooooh, Bra-ad!’ all afternoon.

Those with Swyer syndrome are women, not men.

Things can and do got awry in meiosis and in embryo development. Luckily, at the individual organism scale, it’s more like Catchphrase - you say what you see. If an individual looks to have gone through male puberty, they in all likelihood have. And as a bonus there’s a 99% plus chance those individuals were born with external male genitalia.

DSD are very rare. Which makes odd that they always seem to turn up at the Olympics?

but in the case of sport it’s very very simple. If someone competes as a woman and is tested to have XY chromosome then that is a flag for more investigation not a straight yes/no.

Exactly. it doesn't need to be this complicated. It's complicated, in my opinion, in order to shoehorn men into women's sport for the kudos, money, medals, etc.

Everyone should have a one off cheek swap to determine their sex. And anything flagged has further investigation.

With women's sport protected as a priority.

Because otherwise, as we have seen quite clearly, unscrupulous people will exploit those with DSDs at the expense of women.

Always at the expense of women.

As someone pointed out, what about the transmen who are playing and have an M on their passport? Why aren't they being told they must play on the men's team?

Because they'd never make the grade. Men's sport isn't affected.

We believe the IOC has behaved with wicked irresponsibility

Worse still done it for purely global politics tit for tat.

Because the organisation that had banned the 2 boxers was run by the Russians and been suspended for financial mismangement, and the IOC has taken it on themselves to suddenly become experts. ie they have a female passport!

The IBA said this is 2023:

For clarification on why the IOC permits athletes with competitive advantages to compete in their events, we urge interested parties to seek answers directly from the IOC.
https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

Yes, from what I've read, this is the consensus.

Women with a Y chromosome.

I would describe that person as a man who with massive amounts of medical intervention and through and extraordinarily unusual abnormality of development, was able to carry a pregnancy for long enough to be viable. They wouldn’t have been able to birth the baby naturally and would have needed a C-section.

But outside of medical textbooks and NHS ethics that’s none of my business. I wouldn’t need the vocabulary to comment sensitively- and I do hope no one reading this is upset by any bluntness of phrase I have used.
It isn’t something I’d ever comment on unless invited.

I’m not commenting further- I know what I see, and I know what’s right, and I’m not going to feed the DSD speculation.

"DSD are very rare. Which makes odd that they always seem to turn up at the Olympics?"

Absolutely. I remember a few years ago in a discussion about Caster Semenya someone (possibly Barracker?) posted a really interesting study that revealed just how many men with 46 XY DSD there were in women's elite sports.

Has anyone been much more sensible than me and saved that study by any chance?

OP Have you heard the phrase 'It's the exception that proves the rule'

Swyers is the exception that proves the rule that XY = male

Borrowed from Emma Hilton - The frequency of CAIS in the general population is 1 in 20,000. The frequency of CAIS in female athlete cohorts is 1 in 420. So even if you believe XY individuals with CAIS should be considered female, they still have an athletic advantage over other women.

Do you have any examples of people with an X,Y genotype having children?

There are very very rare conditions where people have some parts of their body that are X,X and some that are X, Y (chimaerism). But I've never heard of an X,Y genotype person having children and can't see how it could be biologically possible. As they wouldn't produce the right gametes.

People with Swyer Syndrome are infertile as their gonads do not develop into testes or ovaries. Pregnancy is only possible if the person has a womb structure and then with donor eggs, and is then rarely successful, and requires c-section for delivery. So it results not as a fact of nature, but as a result of several medical interventions to enable a medically infertile person to serve as a surrogate for a foetus carrying none of their DNA. Indeed, if medical science was advanced enough for me as a male to receive a functioning womb transplant, and then if a donor egg was implanted after fertilisation by one of my own sperm cells, by miracles of medical intervention I could give birth to my own child by c-section with my DNA. But it would not make me a woman.

I was wondering today whether increased genetic testing could have unintended consequences for people who've always believed themselves to be women. Probably unnecessarily though

I was wondering because there are such fine margins that I can see genetic disorders could provide an advantage.

As an aside did anyone watch the BBC programme (quite) a few years back about whether various features of humanity were nature or nurture? They had a really interesting episode about Colin Jackson

Yes I remember that!

An episode where they looked at Colin Jackson and, for example, whether he had more "fast twitch" (that may not be right) than people who weren't athletes, and whether that was something that could be trained or whether it was innate.

I think John Barrowman also did an episode on the research around whether there's a gene for homosexuality.

I'm sure there was a third episode, possibly featuring a top class musician.