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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

100 organisations ask Labour to abandon Tory revised guidelines on RSHE

285 replies

IwantToRetire · 12/07/2024 00:56

The Conservative government launched a consultation in May on planned updates to guidance first issued in 2019, following a review of the reforms.

It proposed age limits on “sensitive” topics, ordered schools not to teach about “gender identity” and to share materials with parents.

Ministers were accused at the time of stirring up “culture war” issues in the run-up to the election.

The consultation closes today.

To coincide with its closure, more than 100 organisations including the ASCL and NAHT leaders’ unions, the PSHE Association, Sex Education Forum, Barnardo’s, Refuge and Everyone’s Invited have issued a joint statement calling for a “fresh start” to the review.

“We are calling on the next government to discard the draft guidance and begin this process in due course, focusing on the needs of children and young people and supporting teachers to deliver a high-quality, inclusive curriculum.”

Lucy Emmerson, CEO of the Sex Education Forum, said age restrictions would be a “backward step making children more vulnerable to abuse and harm”.

PSHE association chief executive Jonathan Baggaley, warned he had “deep concerns about the development process and shortcomings of the draft guidance, particularly on critical aspects of children’s safeguarding, wellbeing and inclusion”.

And Lynn Perry, chief executive of Barnardo’s, said introducing age limits to RSHE topics “risks children missing out on crucial teaching about abuse and exploitation”.

Continues at https://schoolsweek.co.uk/labour-faces-pressure-to-ditch-tory-rshe-reforms/

Labour faces pressure to ditch Tory RSHE reforms

Dozens of groups warn draft RSHE guidance 'falls short of what is required to help keep children safe'

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/labour-faces-pressure-to-ditch-tory-rshe-reforms

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
EasternStandard · 14/07/2024 21:10

Posters here are not limited. There’s clearly good insight into the issues and from informed perspectives:

CreateUserNames · 14/07/2024 21:12

CassieMaddox · 14/07/2024 21:06

Eh? You've lost me.
I can only assume many posters here either have very young children, no children or very adult children so have not had to run the gauntlet of porn/sexting and conversations you'd rather not be having. The genie is not going back in the bottle, no matter how much you bury your head in the sand.

Exactly why it should NOT be mentioned when it is not relevant age! That’s the whole point of banning from age that’s too young!

CassieMaddox · 14/07/2024 21:57

CassieMaddox · 14/07/2024 18:54

eastern, resister do you have children and what kind of age are they?

Any answer to this?

CassieMaddox · 14/07/2024 21:59

CreateUserNames · 14/07/2024 21:12

Exactly why it should NOT be mentioned when it is not relevant age! That’s the whole point of banning from age that’s too young!

Sorry you aren't making sense to me! What do you mean, it is not relevant age! Is English your first language!

ChickenonaMug · 14/07/2024 23:13

Whilst RHSE can definitely be beneficial, it is almost certainly the subject that cause the most harm if done badly. And arguably the most vulnerable children to that harm are children who have been subjected to abuse. RHSE absolutely needs limits placed upon into to mitigate the risks of harm. Sometimes this limits need to be age-related because of the cognitive development of children and sometimes they might be to be trauma-informed limits.

There are many issues when delivering education to abused children. There is likely to be at least one sexually abused child in each class and do to the very nature of abuse and grooming then the vast majority of children will reach adulthood without disclosing to a protective adult. Therefore when delivering RHSE it will often not be known which children are particularly vulnerable as a result of abuse.

From the age of 7 (possibly younger) until into my teens I was subjected to sexual abuse. Here are some of the reasons based on my own childhood experiences why RHSE needs very definite limits.

RHSE will rarely, if ever, be able to empower children to stop abuse. This is what many organisations assert (including the NSPCC/Childline). At best it will be able to inform a child about how to get help and what that help might look like and that they are not to blame for the abuse and that there are laws which recognise their vulnerability and that mean that they won’t be blamed by reasonable adults.

Explicit RHSE, or even an hour long lesson all about sexual abuse, risks that child feeling deeply unsafe. Maybe because she (or he) fears that someone will figure out it has happened to her and she will feel exposed and ashamed. Maybe because she suddenly fears for the first time that images of her are being seen on the internet, like porn is. Maybe because she/he can hear the voice of her abuser in her head telling her that she wanted it. Whatever the reason is, the result may well be to disassociate from the lesson as far as possible- in much the same way she would when being abused. This is not only then deeply traumatising and harmful as it is associated in her mind with being abused, but it will also likely have the impact of closing down the idea of school as a place that would be safe to disclose. It will also put her on ‘alert’ to be ready to disassociate in way that will not draw attention to her during other RHSE lessons. IMO, little bits of advice about how to get help etc from a teacher known to them throughout the school year is far more likely to reach into an abused child’s mind without causing trauma.

School children, unlike most adults, cannot leave a lesson (without drawing attention to themselves or getting into trouble) therefore they are compelled to sit and listen and sometimes engage in the activities. An adult subjected to rape recently would not usually be forced to sit through a session that describes what rape is or what porn could show. A 12 or 14 year old girl will have no choice about listening to a lesson about rape or porn or drawing a picture of a ‘dick pic’, rolling a body parts sex dice, or indeed modelling a penis out of Playdoh, if that is what she is told to do the morning after she has been ***.

Many predators will have the ability to use what is taught in school to their advantage. I see some of what I was told by my abuser, in what children are taught today. For example, about consent, secrets, ‘love has no age’ or about how I was responsible for what happened because i didn’t react age 7 years, like other children might if they didn’t want it. (NSPCC and Jigsaw amongst others). There needs to clear limits on what can be said to children at each age based on understanding of how children interpret things and the strategies predators use to groom and manipulate children.

Sometimes giving children too much knowledge about abuse means that they interpret this as it being their responsibility to stop it happening. They then feel shame that they have not stopped it - making it potentially easier for the abuser to use their ‘shame’ and ‘guilt’ to protect himself and carry on.

Sometimes too much information given to a child could be used to explain away red flags in what a child is describing.
An abused child, may like any other child just not be developmentally ready to understand and process some information in a way that is not harmful to them.

Of course, I do not think that RHSE should only be established around the needs of children who have been abused. But the delivery of it should absolutely not cause further harm and trauma to them.

I also do not think that children should be given developmentally and age-inappropriate lessons because of arguments that it will help abused children to ‘protect themselves’.

Sorry if I haven’t written this very clearly.

dougalfromthemagicroundabout · 14/07/2024 23:48

ChickenonaMug · 14/07/2024 23:13

Whilst RHSE can definitely be beneficial, it is almost certainly the subject that cause the most harm if done badly. And arguably the most vulnerable children to that harm are children who have been subjected to abuse. RHSE absolutely needs limits placed upon into to mitigate the risks of harm. Sometimes this limits need to be age-related because of the cognitive development of children and sometimes they might be to be trauma-informed limits.

There are many issues when delivering education to abused children. There is likely to be at least one sexually abused child in each class and do to the very nature of abuse and grooming then the vast majority of children will reach adulthood without disclosing to a protective adult. Therefore when delivering RHSE it will often not be known which children are particularly vulnerable as a result of abuse.

From the age of 7 (possibly younger) until into my teens I was subjected to sexual abuse. Here are some of the reasons based on my own childhood experiences why RHSE needs very definite limits.

RHSE will rarely, if ever, be able to empower children to stop abuse. This is what many organisations assert (including the NSPCC/Childline). At best it will be able to inform a child about how to get help and what that help might look like and that they are not to blame for the abuse and that there are laws which recognise their vulnerability and that mean that they won’t be blamed by reasonable adults.

Explicit RHSE, or even an hour long lesson all about sexual abuse, risks that child feeling deeply unsafe. Maybe because she (or he) fears that someone will figure out it has happened to her and she will feel exposed and ashamed. Maybe because she suddenly fears for the first time that images of her are being seen on the internet, like porn is. Maybe because she/he can hear the voice of her abuser in her head telling her that she wanted it. Whatever the reason is, the result may well be to disassociate from the lesson as far as possible- in much the same way she would when being abused. This is not only then deeply traumatising and harmful as it is associated in her mind with being abused, but it will also likely have the impact of closing down the idea of school as a place that would be safe to disclose. It will also put her on ‘alert’ to be ready to disassociate in way that will not draw attention to her during other RHSE lessons. IMO, little bits of advice about how to get help etc from a teacher known to them throughout the school year is far more likely to reach into an abused child’s mind without causing trauma.

School children, unlike most adults, cannot leave a lesson (without drawing attention to themselves or getting into trouble) therefore they are compelled to sit and listen and sometimes engage in the activities. An adult subjected to rape recently would not usually be forced to sit through a session that describes what rape is or what porn could show. A 12 or 14 year old girl will have no choice about listening to a lesson about rape or porn or drawing a picture of a ‘dick pic’, rolling a body parts sex dice, or indeed modelling a penis out of Playdoh, if that is what she is told to do the morning after she has been ***.

Many predators will have the ability to use what is taught in school to their advantage. I see some of what I was told by my abuser, in what children are taught today. For example, about consent, secrets, ‘love has no age’ or about how I was responsible for what happened because i didn’t react age 7 years, like other children might if they didn’t want it. (NSPCC and Jigsaw amongst others). There needs to clear limits on what can be said to children at each age based on understanding of how children interpret things and the strategies predators use to groom and manipulate children.

Sometimes giving children too much knowledge about abuse means that they interpret this as it being their responsibility to stop it happening. They then feel shame that they have not stopped it - making it potentially easier for the abuser to use their ‘shame’ and ‘guilt’ to protect himself and carry on.

Sometimes too much information given to a child could be used to explain away red flags in what a child is describing.
An abused child, may like any other child just not be developmentally ready to understand and process some information in a way that is not harmful to them.

Of course, I do not think that RHSE should only be established around the needs of children who have been abused. But the delivery of it should absolutely not cause further harm and trauma to them.

I also do not think that children should be given developmentally and age-inappropriate lessons because of arguments that it will help abused children to ‘protect themselves’.

Sorry if I haven’t written this very clearly.

I am so sorry for the harm done to you when you were such a small child.

Your post is very well written.

Thank you.

ScrollingLeaves · 14/07/2024 23:49

ChickenonaMug · 14/07/2024 23:13

Whilst RHSE can definitely be beneficial, it is almost certainly the subject that cause the most harm if done badly. And arguably the most vulnerable children to that harm are children who have been subjected to abuse. RHSE absolutely needs limits placed upon into to mitigate the risks of harm. Sometimes this limits need to be age-related because of the cognitive development of children and sometimes they might be to be trauma-informed limits.

There are many issues when delivering education to abused children. There is likely to be at least one sexually abused child in each class and do to the very nature of abuse and grooming then the vast majority of children will reach adulthood without disclosing to a protective adult. Therefore when delivering RHSE it will often not be known which children are particularly vulnerable as a result of abuse.

From the age of 7 (possibly younger) until into my teens I was subjected to sexual abuse. Here are some of the reasons based on my own childhood experiences why RHSE needs very definite limits.

RHSE will rarely, if ever, be able to empower children to stop abuse. This is what many organisations assert (including the NSPCC/Childline). At best it will be able to inform a child about how to get help and what that help might look like and that they are not to blame for the abuse and that there are laws which recognise their vulnerability and that mean that they won’t be blamed by reasonable adults.

Explicit RHSE, or even an hour long lesson all about sexual abuse, risks that child feeling deeply unsafe. Maybe because she (or he) fears that someone will figure out it has happened to her and she will feel exposed and ashamed. Maybe because she suddenly fears for the first time that images of her are being seen on the internet, like porn is. Maybe because she/he can hear the voice of her abuser in her head telling her that she wanted it. Whatever the reason is, the result may well be to disassociate from the lesson as far as possible- in much the same way she would when being abused. This is not only then deeply traumatising and harmful as it is associated in her mind with being abused, but it will also likely have the impact of closing down the idea of school as a place that would be safe to disclose. It will also put her on ‘alert’ to be ready to disassociate in way that will not draw attention to her during other RHSE lessons. IMO, little bits of advice about how to get help etc from a teacher known to them throughout the school year is far more likely to reach into an abused child’s mind without causing trauma.

School children, unlike most adults, cannot leave a lesson (without drawing attention to themselves or getting into trouble) therefore they are compelled to sit and listen and sometimes engage in the activities. An adult subjected to rape recently would not usually be forced to sit through a session that describes what rape is or what porn could show. A 12 or 14 year old girl will have no choice about listening to a lesson about rape or porn or drawing a picture of a ‘dick pic’, rolling a body parts sex dice, or indeed modelling a penis out of Playdoh, if that is what she is told to do the morning after she has been ***.

Many predators will have the ability to use what is taught in school to their advantage. I see some of what I was told by my abuser, in what children are taught today. For example, about consent, secrets, ‘love has no age’ or about how I was responsible for what happened because i didn’t react age 7 years, like other children might if they didn’t want it. (NSPCC and Jigsaw amongst others). There needs to clear limits on what can be said to children at each age based on understanding of how children interpret things and the strategies predators use to groom and manipulate children.

Sometimes giving children too much knowledge about abuse means that they interpret this as it being their responsibility to stop it happening. They then feel shame that they have not stopped it - making it potentially easier for the abuser to use their ‘shame’ and ‘guilt’ to protect himself and carry on.

Sometimes too much information given to a child could be used to explain away red flags in what a child is describing.
An abused child, may like any other child just not be developmentally ready to understand and process some information in a way that is not harmful to them.

Of course, I do not think that RHSE should only be established around the needs of children who have been abused. But the delivery of it should absolutely not cause further harm and trauma to them.

I also do not think that children should be given developmentally and age-inappropriate lessons because of arguments that it will help abused children to ‘protect themselves’.

Sorry if I haven’t written this very clearly.

Thank you for writing this from the perspective of someone who has been that very child who is supposed to be protected by school teaching about sexual abuse at a young age. What you say is so important for the guideline makers to know.

I am very sorry for what happened to you.

As soon I saw the bit about teaching ‘consent’ I thought how an abused child might interpret it. Grooming is getting consent. So an abused child will think they have ‘consented’.

As for, ‘Love has no age’ I have even seen that in a child’s book.

As you say here:
Many predators will have the ability to use what is taught in school to their advantage. I see some of what I was told by my abuser, in what children are taught today. For example, about consent, secrets, ‘love has no age’ or about how I was responsible for what happened because i didn’t react age 7 years, like other children might if they didn’t want it. (NSPCC and Jigsaw amongst others). There needs to clear limits on what can be said to children at each age based on understanding of how children interpret things and the strategies predators use to groom and manipulate children.

CreateUserNames · 15/07/2024 01:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PepeParapluie · 15/07/2024 07:40

@ChickenonaMug I am so sorry that you went through that. But your post is very well articulated and you have very clearly explained the issues from the perspective of that child, and you’re totally right. It would be cruel to subject any child to that in school, but most especially those who the ‘more information’ type approach some people are advocating is supposedly aimed at helping.

MotherFeministWoman · 15/07/2024 09:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Well you clearly are not the smartest either. Your comment makes no sense in the context of the one it's replying to.

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