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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Did Keir Starmer just say

317 replies

Helpuschoose · 18/06/2024 09:31

To Nick Ferrari on LBC that transwomen with a GRC will not be allowed in female single-sex spaces? It sounded like it. Is this a clear move or does it still leave wriggle-room? I’m not sure.

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12
cavalier · 18/06/2024 19:24

He’s mr flip flop and I would never trust him. He only said it because Blair said it all. He’s unbelievable really 🤔

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 20:02

cavalier · 18/06/2024 19:24

He’s mr flip flop and I would never trust him. He only said it because Blair said it all. He’s unbelievable really 🤔

Those polls and focus group findings must be VERY interesting indeed...

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 20:43

crabbyoldbat · 18/06/2024 16:28

On Women's Hour this morning, Labour Party Chair and Shadow Secretary for Women and Equalities Anneliese Dodds said: Sex and gender are different, sex is protected under the EA, and exceptions can be made, but this probably could be made clearer/more well known/enforced. There should be appropriate single-sex spaces.

So it sounds to me like they've decided on their position and are following it.

Sarah Jones - Labour's Shadow Minister for Industry and Decarbonisation is listed on the schedule for today.

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 21:06

Helpuschoose · 18/06/2024 11:07

His comments aren’t getting much traction online amongst all the other noise which is deemed so much more important. But The Times have at least referenced it in their rolling coverage.

Has Starmer been misquoted by The Times?

In the screenshot he is quoted as saying; "I think we should protect single-sex spaces for women and girls."

Up thread he is quoted as saying; "I [ ] think we should protect single spaces for women and girls" - (he said single spaces, not single-sex spaces?)

ResisterRex · 18/06/2024 21:17

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 20:02

Those polls and focus group findings must be VERY interesting indeed...

Intriguing thought…because it is odd that Blair emerged to say anything at all really. Especially on this.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 21:40

ResisterRex · 18/06/2024 21:17

Intriguing thought…because it is odd that Blair emerged to say anything at all really. Especially on this.

Blair is still taken seriously in a way that other politicians aren't.

Yes I agree, it's significant that he's said that.

Popcorn time.

Datun · 18/06/2024 22:20

ResisterRex · 18/06/2024 21:17

Intriguing thought…because it is odd that Blair emerged to say anything at all really. Especially on this.

I seem to remember at least four years ago, maybe more, he told labour to keep away from the trans issue. Don't go down that road.

He could totally see the writing on the wall.

DrNickedMaCorpus · 18/06/2024 22:33

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 21:06

Has Starmer been misquoted by The Times?

In the screenshot he is quoted as saying; "I think we should protect single-sex spaces for women and girls."

Up thread he is quoted as saying; "I [ ] think we should protect single spaces for women and girls" - (he said single spaces, not single-sex spaces?)

If that was my transcript I do recommend checking the footage! I was in a big hurry. However I seem to recall he skipped the word 'sex' ... would have to check.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 22:43

Datun · 18/06/2024 22:20

I seem to remember at least four years ago, maybe more, he told labour to keep away from the trans issue. Don't go down that road.

He could totally see the writing on the wall.

I was banging on about it being one of the next big political fracture point way back in 2017/8.

That was when women started getting kicked out of or left political parties as a direct result of chanting TWAW.

It wasn't that hard to work out if you were paying attention and had any concept of what the British Public are like.

The jaw dropping thing is that so few people saw the iceberg and decided to shout 'full steam ahead' instead.

Gymnopedie · 18/06/2024 23:00

And will this side ward be part of a women's ward or a men's?

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 23:07

DrNickedMaCorpus · 18/06/2024 22:33

If that was my transcript I do recommend checking the footage! I was in a big hurry. However I seem to recall he skipped the word 'sex' ... would have to check.

It's ok - I've found it thanks. You were correct, Starmer skipped the word 'sex' and said 'single spaces', followed by 'safe spaces' at that point. The Times have misquoted him - perhaps they haven't picked up on his word games over this issue and filled in the missing word for him.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/06/2024 23:08

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 22:43

I was banging on about it being one of the next big political fracture point way back in 2017/8.

That was when women started getting kicked out of or left political parties as a direct result of chanting TWAW.

It wasn't that hard to work out if you were paying attention and had any concept of what the British Public are like.

The jaw dropping thing is that so few people saw the iceberg and decided to shout 'full steam ahead' instead.

The jaw dropping thing is that so few people saw the iceberg and decided to shout 'full steam ahead' instead.

“Datun · Today 22:20”
“I seem to remember at least four years ago, maybe more, he told labour to keep away from the trans issue. Don't go down that road.”

“He could totally see the writing on the wall.”

It was Tony Blair who set the course of the Titanic to crash into the iceberg when he re-set the navigation dial to say North was South.

DrNickedMaCorpus · 18/06/2024 23:09

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 23:07

It's ok - I've found it thanks. You were correct, Starmer skipped the word 'sex' and said 'single spaces', followed by 'safe spaces' at that point. The Times have misquoted him - perhaps they haven't picked up on his word games over this issue and filled in the missing word for him.

Does he think if he says the phrase 'single sex spaces' but omits the word sex he can fudge it? Did he have his fingers crossed behind his back?

DrNickedMaCorpus · 18/06/2024 23:10

Absolutely pathetic. At least lie with your whole chest, Starmer!

Datun · 18/06/2024 23:50

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 23:07

It's ok - I've found it thanks. You were correct, Starmer skipped the word 'sex' and said 'single spaces', followed by 'safe spaces' at that point. The Times have misquoted him - perhaps they haven't picked up on his word games over this issue and filled in the missing word for him.

If it's deliberate, does he really think people won't notice?

The word sex is pivotal in so many different strands of this issue, no one is going to ignore it if he avoids saying it.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2024 00:21

Going back to Blair's intervention, this is my take on it.

Its been playing on my mind. There's more to this than meets the eye.

Polling is showing that the gender/sex issue is a low priority. Its a 'niche' subject in the sense that voters have a lot of other issues they consider more important.

HOWEVER

I think I would be willing to bet, they are also finding something else with it: whilst its not a priority issue it IS an issue connected with political trust and public confidence in Labour and it potentially is a driver for apathy in voters.

Therefore it may be paradoxically that Yes its true that its not an important issue in terms of priorities, but Yes its also a crucial issue in ensuring votes and motivating voters to an extent that does not reflect its priority - because of this link with fence sitting / trust in Starmer.

Its not so much about the issue itself - its about what it represents - the domination of the Authoritarian Left over the Centrist parts of the party (Remember Starmer needs to win those votes back from people who have voted conservative at the last couple of elections - these are more likely to be slightly more socially conservative voters). People ultimately bottled it, from voting for Corbyn previously remember.

They are nervous voters, who are planning to vote Labour, purely to punish the Torys NOT because they are particularly pro-Labour. Lets call them Lukewarm Labourites. Its a REALLY fragile vote that could just not turn out.

Being told that you must call a man a woman is potentially something thats almost spooking voters more than perhaps its priority would suggest it should, because the wider British electorate is more socially conservative and more liberal rather than authoritarian than people give credit for. They might be willing to switch votes, but this type of identity politics perhaps makes them nervous and waiver over voting. Its a major turnoff. Its about this dislike for the culture war much more generally (reminder - these are centrists). And they have a desire to heal this rift in our society. (Note the big noise about ending the culture war immediately the other day).

The fact that Blair made a comment - almost to test the water without damaging Labour's electoral chances - allowed Labour to see how this went down. A political balloon. Since it didn't attract a level of abuse, that some might expect, its perhaps appearing as a 'safer' position than strategists had previously though. This means Starmer suddenly feels he can also step into this space too given Blair has paved the way for him.

I've just been watching 'The Rest is Politics' by Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell tonight. Campbell raised the point that what he's hearing is a HUGE amount of apathy, a lack of general interest in this election and many people saying they think that Labour have it sown up so they either don't intend to vote or are voting for someone else as a form of protest. Its almost as if its someone elses responsibility to ensure Labour are elected.

I think this is a REALLY important factor. This makes the election a LOT more voliatile and unpredictable than perhaps polling suggests. A low turnout has to be the expectation. People who are politically switched on are much more likely to vote than those who aren't. So if they do care about this issue, they are voters who are more likely to vote than other voters as they are people who are more politically switched on and not only that, but perhaps more influential with their more apathetic peers.

And genuinely this is the first election ever, where I have been deliberately avoiding watching the news. Its the first election I've made a point of NOT watching the leaders debates. Its frankly out of character for me. I bet those viewing figures are really low.

So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say theres a certain level of nervousness going on thats not proportional to where Labour are polling.

I still think they will win by a country mile, but yeah I also don't think its as clear cut as it should be either.

duc748 · 19/06/2024 01:17

I'm expecting spoilt ballots to be at an all-time high.

dunBle · 19/06/2024 03:41

@redtoothbrush Yep, the problem with the polling is that they generally tend to exclude the "don't knows", so if they are a bigger proportion than usual that's going to increase the margin of error on any predictions. I'm not surprised the party may be feeling a bit twitchy about getting the vote out.

teawamutu · 19/06/2024 06:43

Brilliant post, Red. As ever, the most interesting analysis is found on Mumsnet.

ResisterRex · 19/06/2024 07:07

Thank you Red. I remember reading Labour's own analysis of why they lost in 2019. I remember from here, that women had started leaving the party (the bigoted kind who didn't believe women had penises 🤔). The women that did all the local drudgery like leafleting and refreshments for volunteers, but got told to shut up etc.

Anyway, "that issue" wasn't even in their analysis. If there's one thing Cummings did well, it was polling and focus groups. He listened to what people thought and steered the Tories towards those areas. I doubt any of the major parties have someone telling them hard truths and making them face it. But maybe there is someone high up at Labour joining some dots.

The turnout is going to be interesting for sure.

teawamutu · 19/06/2024 08:17

I do wonder - even if Starmer isn't interested in this issue/is borderline captured, is this now a proxy party control issue?

If there's one thing we can see he believes in, it's discipline. And the Momentum faction - your Whittomes, your Russell-Moyles - have TWAW as a key article of faith.

Signalbox · 19/06/2024 08:33

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2024 00:21

Going back to Blair's intervention, this is my take on it.

Its been playing on my mind. There's more to this than meets the eye.

Polling is showing that the gender/sex issue is a low priority. Its a 'niche' subject in the sense that voters have a lot of other issues they consider more important.

HOWEVER

I think I would be willing to bet, they are also finding something else with it: whilst its not a priority issue it IS an issue connected with political trust and public confidence in Labour and it potentially is a driver for apathy in voters.

Therefore it may be paradoxically that Yes its true that its not an important issue in terms of priorities, but Yes its also a crucial issue in ensuring votes and motivating voters to an extent that does not reflect its priority - because of this link with fence sitting / trust in Starmer.

Its not so much about the issue itself - its about what it represents - the domination of the Authoritarian Left over the Centrist parts of the party (Remember Starmer needs to win those votes back from people who have voted conservative at the last couple of elections - these are more likely to be slightly more socially conservative voters). People ultimately bottled it, from voting for Corbyn previously remember.

They are nervous voters, who are planning to vote Labour, purely to punish the Torys NOT because they are particularly pro-Labour. Lets call them Lukewarm Labourites. Its a REALLY fragile vote that could just not turn out.

Being told that you must call a man a woman is potentially something thats almost spooking voters more than perhaps its priority would suggest it should, because the wider British electorate is more socially conservative and more liberal rather than authoritarian than people give credit for. They might be willing to switch votes, but this type of identity politics perhaps makes them nervous and waiver over voting. Its a major turnoff. Its about this dislike for the culture war much more generally (reminder - these are centrists). And they have a desire to heal this rift in our society. (Note the big noise about ending the culture war immediately the other day).

The fact that Blair made a comment - almost to test the water without damaging Labour's electoral chances - allowed Labour to see how this went down. A political balloon. Since it didn't attract a level of abuse, that some might expect, its perhaps appearing as a 'safer' position than strategists had previously though. This means Starmer suddenly feels he can also step into this space too given Blair has paved the way for him.

I've just been watching 'The Rest is Politics' by Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell tonight. Campbell raised the point that what he's hearing is a HUGE amount of apathy, a lack of general interest in this election and many people saying they think that Labour have it sown up so they either don't intend to vote or are voting for someone else as a form of protest. Its almost as if its someone elses responsibility to ensure Labour are elected.

I think this is a REALLY important factor. This makes the election a LOT more voliatile and unpredictable than perhaps polling suggests. A low turnout has to be the expectation. People who are politically switched on are much more likely to vote than those who aren't. So if they do care about this issue, they are voters who are more likely to vote than other voters as they are people who are more politically switched on and not only that, but perhaps more influential with their more apathetic peers.

And genuinely this is the first election ever, where I have been deliberately avoiding watching the news. Its the first election I've made a point of NOT watching the leaders debates. Its frankly out of character for me. I bet those viewing figures are really low.

So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say theres a certain level of nervousness going on thats not proportional to where Labour are polling.

I still think they will win by a country mile, but yeah I also don't think its as clear cut as it should be either.

Yes I agree with a lot of this.

Labour are at risk of becoming the “loony left” again they insist on imposing trans ideology and hate crime legislation that criminalises people for pointing out the bleeding obvious. This is unlikely to prevent them winning the next election but it may hasten their demise. We only have to look at Scotland and the SNP to see how much reputational harm it can do. Presumably that’s why Labour want to get 16 yo voting. Freshly brainwashed school children are much more likely to keep voting for policy based on ID politics because it appeals to their black and white, good v bad way of thinking (not all children before I’m accused of stereotyping)

Datun · 19/06/2024 08:54

Presumably that’s why Labour want to get 16 yo voting.

I mean, do they really think people aren't going to see through this?

Any bloody parent in the country is going to think this is mad or totally cynical, or both.

TWETMIRF · 19/06/2024 08:56

If Labour bring the voting age down to 16, what are Scotland going to do to be different and prove they're better? 14?

makeanddo · 19/06/2024 09:08

What people seem to missing here is that NHS trusts already let transwomen pick which ward they want to go on. Mine has this clearly stated in documents, so men are on women's wards if they want to be.

Keir and the Labour Party don't care - they'll just parrot that the safeguards are in once and people should follow them. Meanwhile your elderly Mum is in a ward with a man who says they are a woman. I do work day if transmen are put in men's wards. I assume if it's a gynae problem theoretically there wouldn't be any men.

Self id is coming in, it's going to be a rough ride.