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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Judith Butler: irony?

75 replies

AnotherAngryAcademic · 02/05/2024 16:01

Judith Butler is opining on the Hamas/Israel war, and on student protests.

JB says:

any student who says “I feel unsafe by what I hear another student say” is saying that “My security and safety is more important than that person’s freedom of expression.”

And then:

And if we countenance that, if we give too much leeway to that claim that a student feels unsafe because, say, an anti-Zionist — or a statement in support of Palestine, or a statement opposing genocide makes that Jewish student feel unsafe, we are saying that that student is perceiving a personal threat or is threatened by the discourse itself — even when the discourse is expressive rather than portending physical harm.

And:

if calling for an end of genocide against Palestine is understood as making a Jewish student feel unsafe, then we see that the safety of the situation has been oddly co-opted by that particular Jewish student.

I am fascinated by the way Judith Butler has framed these concerns about feeling threatened by discourse.

(JUDITH BUTLER WILL NOT CO-SIGN ISRAEL’S ALIBI FOR GENOCIDE

Edited for formatting, and because the link disappeared!)

OP posts:
maltravers · 16/12/2024 15:57

Does she not think it’s a bit fascistic of her to issue diktats about what women will and won’t accept?

ANewCreation · 16/12/2024 16:06

Womanhood won’t be erased just because we open the category and invite some more people blokes in.

What does 'womanhood' mean then, Judith and d'ya think that is how categories work?

maltravers · 16/12/2024 16:09

She seems to think it’s her own intellectual creation/whatever she tells women they are. She can get lost.

annejumps · 16/12/2024 16:12

It's in fact very easy to square away under postmodernism. There's no need for intellectual fairness when you are on the side of the Righteous. Pro-Palestinians/anti-"Zionists" = righteous. Men who say they are women = righteous.

Redshoeblueshoe · 16/12/2024 16:17

She is now apparently non binary, but funnily enough doesn't have relationships with TW - I can't think why

PinkoPonko · 16/12/2024 16:24

In our contemporary moment, which I will generously describe as “hyper-normal,” we are confronted with the alarming reemergence of fascist ideologies, which I contend are not merely repressive structures of power, but rather performatives—rituals of exclusion and domination that circulate within the very structures that claim to protect “free speech.” The paradox, of course, is that fascism, as it manifests in our discourse, is both an exercise in free speech and a radical reorganization of the conditions under which speech can be considered “free.” And it is here, in this disjuncture, that we must locate the performative power of the fascist.

What is fascism if not a deeply enunciated claim to be heard, to dominate the linguistic field? When fascists declare, "We have the right to speak," they are engaging in the very performance of speaking that allows them to assert their epistemic violence. It is in this very act of speaking that fascism both conceals and reveals its own contradiction: the insistence on free speech becomes an act of censorship, a means by which certain bodies and voices are marked as “unhearable,” as unperformable in the dominant register of public discourse.

Now, let us not be so naive as to think that speech can be neutral. Speech, like all forms of power, is thoroughly interpellated by the very forces that shape its conditions of possibility. When we argue for “free speech,” we are not merely arguing for an unencumbered exchange of ideas. We are, rather, negotiating the terms of this speech, and who gets to participate in it. Fascists, in this context, perform a radical re-inscription of the terms of participation, positioning themselves as the arbiters of what can and cannot be uttered. But here lies the conundrum: to silence fascism is to challenge the conditions of free speech itself, yet to allow fascism its full utterance is to risk the very structure of the political community.

Thus, we must embrace what I call the “ontological suspension of free speech.” This suspension is not a denial of speech but a rethinking of the ethics of speech. It is a moment in which we question: whose speech is being protected, and at what cost? The freedom to speak, as I argue, is always a differential freedom, a freedom that is always already situatedwithin a grid of power relations that determine who has the right to speak and who is condemned to silence. Fascism, in its insistence on the freedom to hate, demands a counter-performative: a free speech that is not simply the right to speak, but the right to deconstruct the terms under which speech operates.

In this way, the very act of censorship—or as I prefer to call it, the "ethical reconfiguration of speech norms"—becomes a necessary precondition for the protection of a truly democratic discourse. After all, if democracy is merely the enactment of free speech without any consideration of the social conditions under which speech occurs, then we risk a situation where fascism itself can legitimately claim its right to speak, thereby undermining the possibility of democratic dialogue altogether.

In conclusion, the question of free speech must be understood as one that is always already embedded within a larger discourse of power. The rise of fascism, therefore, should not be seen merely as an affront to free speech but as a performative act that calls into question the very conditions under which free speech is granted. To speak of free speech, then, is to acknowledge the deep contradictions at the heart of our democratic practices, and to ask: is speech truly free if it is not freely contested, not freely deconstructed? In other words, perhaps we must silence fascism in order to protect the possibility of speech itself.

~Moodith Banalter

SinnerBoy · 16/12/2024 16:28

murasaki · Today 15:36

I'm pretty sure that should I be bonkers enough to have the gender conversation with a London cabbie, they'd 100% agree with me.

As long as you don't mention immigration, Brexit, or, God forbid, Princess Diana!

murasaki · 16/12/2024 16:33

SinnerBoy · 16/12/2024 16:28

murasaki · Today 15:36

I'm pretty sure that should I be bonkers enough to have the gender conversation with a London cabbie, they'd 100% agree with me.

As long as you don't mention immigration, Brexit, or, God forbid, Princess Diana!

Last time it was the closing of junior schools in Camden, trees being chopped down for HS 2 and train strikes...

maltravers · 16/12/2024 16:43

What is the JKR/cabbie reference btw?

RoyalCorgi · 16/12/2024 16:47

I'm starting to wonder if Judith Butler is a bit simple.

FranticFrankie · 16/12/2024 16:50

Redshoeblueshoe · 16/12/2024 16:17

She is now apparently non binary, but funnily enough doesn't have relationships with TW - I can't think why

Oooh is she being accused of transphobia? If not, why?

How can such a noted academic spout such twaddle?
Our rights are not hers to give away

murasaki · 16/12/2024 17:09

Her being appointed as an honorary fellow of my previous work place was what tipped the balance re me taking voluntary severance after 17 years.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/12/2024 17:26

Judith Butler is a fucking dimwit.

Spare us from intellectuals.

WeeBisom · 16/12/2024 18:04

I totally agree with posters who have observed that Judith Butler is able to write cogently and normally on certain issues. The weird thing is, when she does this all of the postmodern theory goes out of the window. It's like when people forget that transwomen are supposed to be 100% identical to women, and they inadvertently let reality slip in. It takes a real cognitive load to remind yourself that you are supposed to be operating in a bullshit framework.

This is classic Butler, changing her theories and views depending on what the issue is. Take morality, for example. For years, Butler has maintained there's no such thing as objective morality. Morality is just power relations and linguistic constructions. In Gender Trouble she says there's not much we can do about oppression except 'subvert' or queer it. In the case of female oppression, there isn't even a cogent definition of 'woman' or 'female' - sex and gender are entirely socially constructed, so there is no real basis for saying that men oppress women. She has written articles attempting to reframe rape and sexual harassment, questioning whether rape is really all that bad, or if we have just socially constructed rape to be bad.

Then Black Lives Matter comes along, and Butler is suddenly very clear that violence and oppression by white people against black people is absolutely wrong (which, of course, it is). Butler doesn't dwell at all on the thorny issue of what 'black' and 'white' means. She just assumes that black people exist, they are unquestionably oppressed by white people, this is bad, and something has to be done.

The question is...why does all of the postmodern stuff go out of the window when she writes about Israel and Palestine, or black oppression, but in the case of women she can't even decide what a woman IS?

lonelywater · 16/12/2024 18:08

PinkoPonko · 16/12/2024 16:24

In our contemporary moment, which I will generously describe as “hyper-normal,” we are confronted with the alarming reemergence of fascist ideologies, which I contend are not merely repressive structures of power, but rather performatives—rituals of exclusion and domination that circulate within the very structures that claim to protect “free speech.” The paradox, of course, is that fascism, as it manifests in our discourse, is both an exercise in free speech and a radical reorganization of the conditions under which speech can be considered “free.” And it is here, in this disjuncture, that we must locate the performative power of the fascist.

What is fascism if not a deeply enunciated claim to be heard, to dominate the linguistic field? When fascists declare, "We have the right to speak," they are engaging in the very performance of speaking that allows them to assert their epistemic violence. It is in this very act of speaking that fascism both conceals and reveals its own contradiction: the insistence on free speech becomes an act of censorship, a means by which certain bodies and voices are marked as “unhearable,” as unperformable in the dominant register of public discourse.

Now, let us not be so naive as to think that speech can be neutral. Speech, like all forms of power, is thoroughly interpellated by the very forces that shape its conditions of possibility. When we argue for “free speech,” we are not merely arguing for an unencumbered exchange of ideas. We are, rather, negotiating the terms of this speech, and who gets to participate in it. Fascists, in this context, perform a radical re-inscription of the terms of participation, positioning themselves as the arbiters of what can and cannot be uttered. But here lies the conundrum: to silence fascism is to challenge the conditions of free speech itself, yet to allow fascism its full utterance is to risk the very structure of the political community.

Thus, we must embrace what I call the “ontological suspension of free speech.” This suspension is not a denial of speech but a rethinking of the ethics of speech. It is a moment in which we question: whose speech is being protected, and at what cost? The freedom to speak, as I argue, is always a differential freedom, a freedom that is always already situatedwithin a grid of power relations that determine who has the right to speak and who is condemned to silence. Fascism, in its insistence on the freedom to hate, demands a counter-performative: a free speech that is not simply the right to speak, but the right to deconstruct the terms under which speech operates.

In this way, the very act of censorship—or as I prefer to call it, the "ethical reconfiguration of speech norms"—becomes a necessary precondition for the protection of a truly democratic discourse. After all, if democracy is merely the enactment of free speech without any consideration of the social conditions under which speech occurs, then we risk a situation where fascism itself can legitimately claim its right to speak, thereby undermining the possibility of democratic dialogue altogether.

In conclusion, the question of free speech must be understood as one that is always already embedded within a larger discourse of power. The rise of fascism, therefore, should not be seen merely as an affront to free speech but as a performative act that calls into question the very conditions under which free speech is granted. To speak of free speech, then, is to acknowledge the deep contradictions at the heart of our democratic practices, and to ask: is speech truly free if it is not freely contested, not freely deconstructed? In other words, perhaps we must silence fascism in order to protect the possibility of speech itself.

~Moodith Banalter

is that available in an English translation?

WeeBisom · 16/12/2024 18:13

Also, in her latest interview it starts with: "Judith Butler, 68, isn’t particularly “interested in lists,” even when they top them. “I am in illustrious male company,” they remark upon hearing the names of Thomas Piketty, Noam Chomsky, and Jürgen Habermas — the next most influential thinkers, according to experts questioned by EL PAÍS. “Does that make me a man?” they quip."

I cannot believe she can say these kinds of things and people actually take her seriously. Why on earth would anyone think that being among illustrious male company makes them a man? WHAT? This is toddler-level thinking. And notice how Butler just blithely assumes that the people in the list with her are males. How does she know that?

"Womanhood won’t be erased just because we open the category and invite some more people in." She just states this with no further argument. If you have the category 'woman' which includes only females, and you 'open' the category and let in males as well then the concept of 'woman' becomes utterly meaningless. You have entirely transformed the criteria for the category so the original category doesn't exist anymore. Would Butler be equally happy if 'cis' people demanded to be let into the category of 'trans' so that anyone and everyone could identify as a transwoman? I bet she wouldn't.

Report proposes tax on the ultra-rich to finance a global climate fund

Led by French economists Thomas Piketty and Lucas Chancel, the study advocates a progressive rate of 1.5% to 3% for fortunes of over $100 million

https://english.elpais.com/economy-and-business/2023-01-31/report-proposes-tax-on-the-ultra-rich-to-finance-a-global-climate-fund.html

duc748 · 16/12/2024 18:15

Is if the lot of the Palestinians isn't bleak enough, imagine having her on your side...

Ingenieur · 16/12/2024 18:37

JB: "Some feminists, I think unwittingly, have allied themselves in places like the U.K. and Spain with the far right when it comes to instigating this phantasm about gender. I understand those fears, but that doesn’t mean that I think they’re based on knowledge."

Naah, I don't think you do, Judy...

ellenback21 · 16/12/2024 19:21

PinkoPonko · 16/12/2024 16:24

In our contemporary moment, which I will generously describe as “hyper-normal,” we are confronted with the alarming reemergence of fascist ideologies, which I contend are not merely repressive structures of power, but rather performatives—rituals of exclusion and domination that circulate within the very structures that claim to protect “free speech.” The paradox, of course, is that fascism, as it manifests in our discourse, is both an exercise in free speech and a radical reorganization of the conditions under which speech can be considered “free.” And it is here, in this disjuncture, that we must locate the performative power of the fascist.

What is fascism if not a deeply enunciated claim to be heard, to dominate the linguistic field? When fascists declare, "We have the right to speak," they are engaging in the very performance of speaking that allows them to assert their epistemic violence. It is in this very act of speaking that fascism both conceals and reveals its own contradiction: the insistence on free speech becomes an act of censorship, a means by which certain bodies and voices are marked as “unhearable,” as unperformable in the dominant register of public discourse.

Now, let us not be so naive as to think that speech can be neutral. Speech, like all forms of power, is thoroughly interpellated by the very forces that shape its conditions of possibility. When we argue for “free speech,” we are not merely arguing for an unencumbered exchange of ideas. We are, rather, negotiating the terms of this speech, and who gets to participate in it. Fascists, in this context, perform a radical re-inscription of the terms of participation, positioning themselves as the arbiters of what can and cannot be uttered. But here lies the conundrum: to silence fascism is to challenge the conditions of free speech itself, yet to allow fascism its full utterance is to risk the very structure of the political community.

Thus, we must embrace what I call the “ontological suspension of free speech.” This suspension is not a denial of speech but a rethinking of the ethics of speech. It is a moment in which we question: whose speech is being protected, and at what cost? The freedom to speak, as I argue, is always a differential freedom, a freedom that is always already situatedwithin a grid of power relations that determine who has the right to speak and who is condemned to silence. Fascism, in its insistence on the freedom to hate, demands a counter-performative: a free speech that is not simply the right to speak, but the right to deconstruct the terms under which speech operates.

In this way, the very act of censorship—or as I prefer to call it, the "ethical reconfiguration of speech norms"—becomes a necessary precondition for the protection of a truly democratic discourse. After all, if democracy is merely the enactment of free speech without any consideration of the social conditions under which speech occurs, then we risk a situation where fascism itself can legitimately claim its right to speak, thereby undermining the possibility of democratic dialogue altogether.

In conclusion, the question of free speech must be understood as one that is always already embedded within a larger discourse of power. The rise of fascism, therefore, should not be seen merely as an affront to free speech but as a performative act that calls into question the very conditions under which free speech is granted. To speak of free speech, then, is to acknowledge the deep contradictions at the heart of our democratic practices, and to ask: is speech truly free if it is not freely contested, not freely deconstructed? In other words, perhaps we must silence fascism in order to protect the possibility of speech itself.

~Moodith Banalter

So glad I did a physics degree. Way easier to understand than this🙄

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/12/2024 19:28

maltravers · 16/12/2024 15:57

Does she not think it’s a bit fascistic of her to issue diktats about what women will and won’t accept?

Especially with her not being a woman and all.

🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

BeyondHumanKenneth · 16/12/2024 19:30

"I understand those fears, but that doesn’t mean that I think they’re based on knowledge."

Obviously we feminists have the wrong kind of knowledge. Not as good as the proper and more correct knowledge JB possesses of course.

Almost as if she thinks there is a way to judge knowledge claims against an external reality. Ironic really.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/12/2024 19:35

ellenback21 · 16/12/2024 19:21

So glad I did a physics degree. Way easier to understand than this🙄

Don't be fooled. It's deliberately written like that in the hope that no one notices it's all a crock of shite.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 16/12/2024 19:46

She has written articles attempting to reframe rape and sexual harassment, questioning whether rape is really all that bad, or if we have just socially constructed rape to be bad.

Perhaps she should take a look at the Congolese women who have been left with gynecological fistulae after being raped? Or the horror story unfolding in a French courtroom as we speak, with Madame Pelicot left with persistent STIs and other injuries? Or even just face the weeks of forced "Schroedinger's pregnancy" terror that elapse between the rape and any pregnancy being detectable by a test?

Yes, rape was historically conceived of as a crime against a man's property, but that was only able to be thought of as a crime because the men making those laws recognised that injuring a woman, infecting her, or leaving her pregnant was a form of injury to property. Whether as injury to women qua property or injury to women qua people, the injury inflicted through rape has always been recognised as a matter of fact.

TheHereticalOne · 16/12/2024 19:56

lonelywater · 16/12/2024 18:08

is that available in an English translation?

The genuine answer to this question is that this person is saying, "isn't it a funny paradox that in order to truly allow free speech you have to allow people to argue forcefully that people's shouldn't be allowed to have it, and to soak in such a way that it might intimate other people from exercising their right to free speech? And also that in order to allow everyone to have a version of free speech you might sometimes have to curtail what other people say (at least in certain contexts)".....

To which the answer is, "yes, it's the fundamental question when considering the limits of free speech. It is also considered (and better articulated) by every sixth form debater in the land)."

Got to gussy it up if we want to sound profound, though!

TheHereticalOne · 16/12/2024 20:05

TheHereticalOne · 16/12/2024 19:56

The genuine answer to this question is that this person is saying, "isn't it a funny paradox that in order to truly allow free speech you have to allow people to argue forcefully that people's shouldn't be allowed to have it, and to soak in such a way that it might intimate other people from exercising their right to free speech? And also that in order to allow everyone to have a version of free speech you might sometimes have to curtail what other people say (at least in certain contexts)".....

To which the answer is, "yes, it's the fundamental question when considering the limits of free speech. It is also considered (and better articulated) by every sixth form debater in the land)."

Got to gussy it up if we want to sound profound, though!

Oh god, I've just realised this ream of nonsense was Judith Butler. Why did I bother?

Is she paid by the word?