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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

1000 replies

IwantToRetire · 18/04/2024 17:32

By Aston Institute for Forensic Linguistics

It has been suggested that the forum-style parenting website Mumsnet is a hub for ‘gender-critical’ feminism, which directly opposes transgender rights, to be practised with little moderation (Livingston, 2018). This presentation reports on the initial stages of a project aiming to investigate that the potential intensification of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet may lead to further marginalisation of transgender people offline (Powys Maurice, 2021). Though studies of non-linguistic transphobic rhetoric on Mumsnet (e.g., Pedersen, 2022; Mackenzie, 2019), and discourse analyses of other radical online communities (e.g., Krendel, 2020) have both occurred, this project is the first to analyse linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet. It also contributes to existing literature surrounding UK-based ‘gender-critical’ feminism; linguistic transphobia; and radical online community discourses.

The presentation explores the rise of potentially ‘gender-critical’ linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet over time through the corpus linguistic (CL) analysis of the ‘Feminism: Sex & Gender Discussions’ board, using three corpora comprising a fifteen-year timeframe: 2008-2013; 2013-2018; and 2018-2023. As the project is still ongoing, preliminary findings will be presented, namely a comparative overview of trends yielded in frequency analyses. Overall, this presentation provides insights into the growing commonality of potentially ‘gender-critical’ feminist rhetoric on Mumsnet and its effect on increasing transphobic discourse on the site.

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-corpus-assisted-discourse-analysis-of-linguistic-transphobia-on-mumsnet-tickets-880795271367?aff=ebdssbdestsearch

(I had just finished my favourite tea time treat of catching up on FWR and was going to get back to the grindstone when this popped up on my feed. So have come back as it is too good not to be shared. Enjoy!)

A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

The talk explores the rise of potentially ‘gender-critical’ linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet over time through a corpus linguistic analysis

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-corpus-assisted-discourse-analysis-of-linguistic-transphobia-on-mumsnet-tickets-880795271367?aff=ebdssbdestsearch

OP posts:
Thread gallery
83
RealFeminist · 22/04/2024 10:09

Mumsnet have said that Aston's scraping was against their t&Cs.

TokyoBouncyBall · 22/04/2024 10:12

NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 22/04/2024 09:41

Did they? I was looking at something last night (prelapsarian Eden—don't ask) and on the search result page, I realised that Chrome/Google had defaulted me to Eden Palmer because of this thread and the LI page was still there with the 'mumsnet transphobia' in the snippet.

Did anyone archive EP's LI page as an indication of her claims about MN and transphobia?

I've had that, the snippet remains even once the page has gone. But there is a screenshot further up here somewhere.

And no, I can't load Text Crimes either, not even from Beautiful Canoe's website.

I hope they're having some interesting meetings in Aston today.

SoupDragonsFriend · 22/04/2024 10:18

SoupDragonsFriend · 22/04/2024 09:57

Can a legal mind on here drum up a snappy sentence saying that anything I write on MN is mine, and mine alone so I don't give permission for it to be scraped for whatever purpose?

Thanks everyone for the heads up about the MN Ts&Cs (which I will have read when I joined but won't have retained the info!) and the ICO statement. I'll leave this idea.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 22/04/2024 10:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RealFeminist · 22/04/2024 10:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Let's not start with apologies-on-behalf, for god's sake. I live in Scotland, I'd be here all day.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 22/04/2024 10:50

RealFeminist · 22/04/2024 10:48

Let's not start with apologies-on-behalf, for god's sake. I live in Scotland, I'd be here all day.

😂 You've got JKR and she almost makes up for the SNP.

KellieJaysLapdog · 22/04/2024 10:51

Are you sorry about Ma Murrell’s caravan?

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/04/2024 11:10

I know the conversations has moved along but the MN emoiji I can't find a substitute for is the "hmm/sceptical" eyeroll Hmm So expressive it's nearly a one-emoji hate crime in its own right.

For example: The supervisor has replaced her "Votes for Women" Hmm Twitter banner with "Trans Rights are Human Rights"

Is there a modern version?

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 22/04/2024 11:10

terffert · 22/04/2024 10:03

[Edit to add: sorry for grumpy tone but those fb things, and especially the way people share them without checking, really, really annoy me for some reason.]

No, please don't let's go that way (the way of post this on your fb page otherwise Zuckerberg will take your firstborn). You are bound by the Mumsnet Terms of Use, which you can read here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/i/terms-of-use
and which include
By submitting User Content to us, simultaneously with such posting you automatically grant to us a worldwide, fully-paid, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, fully sublicensable, and transferable right and license to use, record, sell, lease, reproduce, distribute, create derivative works based upon (including, without limitation, translations), publicly display, publicly perform, transmit, publish and otherwise exploit the User Content (in whole or in part) as Mumsnet, in its sole discretion, deems appropriate.

Don't like that, don't post.

Edited

Mumsnet is still bound by the law though, whatever they write in T&Cs. Which would include not defaming users or doxxing them.

Of course I don't think there's any way MNHQ would do that - apart from ethical considerations it would not be good business sense.

However it is clear MN own the data and it's not a free for all.

GDPR still applies also - which would definitely come into play to anyone trying to cross reference different user names to figure out real life identity.

Anothernamechangetochange · 22/04/2024 11:21

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 22/04/2024 11:10

Mumsnet is still bound by the law though, whatever they write in T&Cs. Which would include not defaming users or doxxing them.

Of course I don't think there's any way MNHQ would do that - apart from ethical considerations it would not be good business sense.

However it is clear MN own the data and it's not a free for all.

GDPR still applies also - which would definitely come into play to anyone trying to cross reference different user names to figure out real life identity.

People using internet forums anonymously and not illegally should have a reasonable expectation to privacy.

RealFeminist · 22/04/2024 11:25

KellieJaysLapdog · 22/04/2024 10:51

Are you sorry about Ma Murrell’s caravan?

ACTUALLY ITS A PREMIUM MOTORHOME

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/04/2024 11:35

To be fair, it's not clear that this PhD is going to defame or doxx individuals. However this project, and indeed the institute as a whole, is doing research that could in future be applied by individuals to defame or doxx others, a well as supporting state and commercial surveillance. Some of which we would all consider very worthwhile, such as identifying paedophiles or terrorists. Others, not so much. Such as identifying political dissidents.

It's quite common for research to have multiple applications. Perhaps a device that has been funded and promoted and intensively researched for patting disabled kittens could with some modification be applied to torturing political prisoners. Forensic Linguistics is not exactly Free Speech Central, and I imagine part of these researchers' role with their feminism and trans rights (whether they realise or not) is to act as an ethical figleaf for the liberal-minded.

Unfortunately for these researchers the figleaf just slipped. Transphobia is a very much contested idea. We all agree that patting kittens is a good thing. Accusing women of transphobia, not so much.

RealFeminist · 22/04/2024 11:35

Textcrimes.com has been archived a few times between 2014 and 2019.

Most recent:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190530205551/textcrimes.com/content/content" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20190530205551/textcrimes.com/content/content

'Text Collections - the TextCrimes database is structured as discrete collections of texts. Each text collection can have a different owner who has control over access to that collection.
User access to any collection can be set to one of fours levels

  • Full access - this includes access to the original image file from which a text was transcribed.
  • Anonymised access - this denies access to the image file and provides access only to an anonymised version of the transcript and an anonymised tag set.
  • Analysis access - this denies access to any textual information but allows content from the collection to be analysed and provide comparison statistics to the open data.
  • Private – only the collection owner has access.
Not even the TextCrimes administrators can override the access levels to read a text if a collection owner restricts access. Users may have access to more than one text collection and run queries to create sub-collections, which they themselves can save as their own personal collections. These in turn may be shared with other users (assuming they have the correct permissions to see the original texts). Text Series - within a text collection texts can be linked into series. Texts may be linked into series in different ways. These include: Current Collections The base data set contains three collections all 'owned' by Tim Grant. These are
  • Public data – texts in these collections have been obtained through internet searches and most have been obtained from the vault.fbi.gov/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">FBI Vault.
  • CFL casework - texts in this collection come from CFL case files. Where texts have been produced in public court cases, or are otherwise in the public domain, they will be provided unanonymised; otherwise case texts will be provided in anonymised form.
  • CFL background – texts in this collection are from CFL case files where even anonymised versions cannot be released. Analysis access to statistics generated from these texts will be provided.

'

Content | textcrimes.com

https://web.archive.org/web/20190530205551/https://textcrimes.com/content/content

KellieJaysLapdog · 22/04/2024 11:35

https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/research-impact-at-the-uk-parliament/why-engage-with-parliament/researchers-stories/professor-tim-grant/

This is from 2015 and mentions a ‘Forensics Regulator’ off to see who that is exactly…

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 11:38

terffert · 22/04/2024 10:03

[Edit to add: sorry for grumpy tone but those fb things, and especially the way people share them without checking, really, really annoy me for some reason.]

No, please don't let's go that way (the way of post this on your fb page otherwise Zuckerberg will take your firstborn). You are bound by the Mumsnet Terms of Use, which you can read here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/i/terms-of-use
and which include
By submitting User Content to us, simultaneously with such posting you automatically grant to us a worldwide, fully-paid, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, fully sublicensable, and transferable right and license to use, record, sell, lease, reproduce, distribute, create derivative works based upon (including, without limitation, translations), publicly display, publicly perform, transmit, publish and otherwise exploit the User Content (in whole or in part) as Mumsnet, in its sole discretion, deems appropriate.

Don't like that, don't post.

Edited

@RealFeminist is right with this

Mumsnet have said that Aston's scraping was against their t&Cs.

RealFeminist · 22/04/2024 11:41

Something that's becoming clear is that most of Aston Institute's research consists of data scraped/obtained from criminal justice system. FBI data, police data.

Plus Mumsnet. Not actually known for being full of criminals, despite Eden's attempt to suggest it is full of women committing hate crime.

It feels a bit 'pre crime' territory, tbh.

KellieJaysLapdog · 22/04/2024 11:42

So apparently we had a Forensics Standards Bill come into force in October 23 but i
just searched this document and there is nothing re: linguistics at all!

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63d145868fa8f53fdc9648ad/E02852302_Forensic_Science_Draft_CoP_Web_Accessible.pdf

Am I too Google search addled to find something or have Forensic Linguistics managed to side step regulation due to not being ‘science-y’ (Prof Grant quote) enough?

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/forensic-science-regulator

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63d145868fa8f53fdc9648ad/E02852302_Forensic_Science_Draft_CoP_Web_Accessible.pdf

KellieJaysLapdog · 22/04/2024 11:48

Unfortunately for these researchers the figleaf just slipped. Transphobia is a very much contested idea. We all agree that patting kittens is a good thing. Accusing women of transphobia, not so much.

Yeah, going after Mean Mums for Thought Crimes probably helps them feel better about stuff like analysing Asylum claimants language to try and ascertain where they are really from*.

Universities must be in dire need of a leftist palate cleanser after flying so dangerously close to Nigel Farage.

*got that use of FL from Prof Grant’s 2015 submission on the parliamentary website.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 22/04/2024 11:57

terffert · 22/04/2024 10:03

[Edit to add: sorry for grumpy tone but those fb things, and especially the way people share them without checking, really, really annoy me for some reason.]

No, please don't let's go that way (the way of post this on your fb page otherwise Zuckerberg will take your firstborn). You are bound by the Mumsnet Terms of Use, which you can read here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/i/terms-of-use
and which include
By submitting User Content to us, simultaneously with such posting you automatically grant to us a worldwide, fully-paid, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, fully sublicensable, and transferable right and license to use, record, sell, lease, reproduce, distribute, create derivative works based upon (including, without limitation, translations), publicly display, publicly perform, transmit, publish and otherwise exploit the User Content (in whole or in part) as Mumsnet, in its sole discretion, deems appropriate.

Don't like that, don't post.

Edited

I am fully aware that MN own user content and may, for example, publish parenting advice guides with chapters punctuated by relevant posts from MNers. (It was a very funny book, btw.)

There is nothing in the terms and conditions that says Aston University own my witterings from the moment I press send. Making an MN account constitutes an agreement with Mumsnet, not Aston; nor any other educational institution!

NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 22/04/2024 12:11

I'm not proud of myself for this but may I vent that I find inability to use a spell checker to catch a typo on public-facing sites irritating, never mind what it says about the shoddiness of editing and sign-off procedures.

A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet
RealFeminist · 22/04/2024 12:13

KellieJaysLapdog · 22/04/2024 11:42

So apparently we had a Forensics Standards Bill come into force in October 23 but i
just searched this document and there is nothing re: linguistics at all!

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63d145868fa8f53fdc9648ad/E02852302_Forensic_Science_Draft_CoP_Web_Accessible.pdf

Am I too Google search addled to find something or have Forensic Linguistics managed to side step regulation due to not being ‘science-y’ (Prof Grant quote) enough?

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/forensic-science-regulator

Discussed in HoC in 2016:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200807215406/hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2016-04-20/debates/16042035000001/ForensicLinguistics(Standards" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20200807215406/hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2016-04-20/debates/16042035000001/ForensicLinguistics(Standards

And actually it's really interesting, so posting the whole move:

Roger Mullin (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (SNP)

I beg to move,

'That leave be given to bring in a Bill to place a duty on the forensic science regulator to establish a code of practice and conduct for the providers and practitioners of forensic linguistics in the criminal justice system; to make provision about the required scientific quality standards for the discipline; and for connected purposes.
Our children and young people face an enormous threat from being groomed by radical extremists and paedophiles, facilitated by the internet, social media and mobile technology. The Bill is therefore about the protection of vulnerable people, and it is about the monitoring and analysis of communications between people about whom we need to be really concerned: people who plot and scheme to do others harm; people such as paedophiles and extremists; and people who use modern technology as a tool in their evil business.'

Last October, I led a Westminster Hall debate on the use of children as suicide bombers. We know that many of the techniques used in recruiting and grooming such children are the same as those used by paedophiles. We also know that there is software available that will identify the messages and language of groomers, and that, using a variety of tools, security agencies can match those to the voice and language patterns of known individuals. Forensic linguistics is a complicated and relatively new field. Linguistic evidence can involve science, social science and interpretation, and forensic linguistic analyses require a complex set of knowledge and skills. Presently, however, anyone—including you or me, Mr Speaker—can proclaim themselves an expert in forensic linguistics. Consequently, there is a considerable danger of substandard analysis being offered in a court of law.
We need a standardised qualification for analysts and a standardised set of techniques to give the courts confidence that such evidence can be accepted as more than just interesting background. The Bill does not represent sophisticated legislation, as compiling a statutory register would be relatively straightforward. The register called for by the Bill would not need its own regulator, as one already exists: the forensic science regulator. She is already working on including speech and audio analysis as a recognised speciality area, but as textual linguistic analysis draws on interpretative as well as scientific methods, it falls outside her current remit.
I would also draw attention to current codes of practice and conduct for forensic science providers and practitioners, and more generally for expert witnesses in the criminal justice system, that could be adapted to include the practice of forensic linguistics. For setting the accredited qualifications, there are academic institutions with evident authority in this area, such as the centre for forensic linguistics at Aston University. I personally thank the director of the centre, Professor Tim Grant, for his help in developing the Bill. I am also grateful for encouragement from the president of the Chartered Society of Forensic Sciences and the director of forensic services in Scotland, Mr Tom Nelson. The standard of specialist witnesses and forensic scientists themselves is inherently protean—I know of some people who call themselves forensic scientists, but cannot tell the difference between the sensitivity of a test and the specificity of a test, let alone calculate its predictive value.
I have already said that speech and audio analysis and textual analysis are two different things. The problem for textual forensic linguistics is that many aspects of the work—the determination of meanings in messages, profiling the background of a writer and so on—are a long way from the laboratory-based paradigm. The closest we get to laboratory-based science is in comparative authorship analysis, for which methods are published and tested. The diversity of questions that forensic linguists address and the approaches that they take to those questions means that the forensic science regulator does not cover their work, so there is no way for high-quality practitioners to be identified and used and low-quality practitioners avoided.
There is a need for a mechanism to recognise what should count as quality work in textual forensic linguistics. That could be a register of individuals or methods, or both. The obvious person to hold that would be the forensic science regulator, but that would definitely represent an extension of her current role, hence the need for the Bill.
Where is the proof, however, that forensic linguistic analysis can work? In those cases in which forensic linguistic evidence has been allowed in court, it has proved particularly valuable. For example, it was used in the appeals of Derek Bentley and the Birmingham Six. In many instances across the UK, it has been used to determine the authorship of SMS text messages in murder cases. It has been used to extract the meaning of coded texts and slang terms used in internet chatrooms, often involving conspiracies to murder and child sex abuse conversations. Good forensic linguistic evidence has withstood appeal, yet this excellent work could be undermined due to substandard analysis by poorly qualified and unqualified practitioners.
Although it has strong roots in the UK, textual forensic linguistic evidence is increasingly accepted internationally. Examples of its use include successful appeals against murder convictions in Australia and cases of disputed wills in South Africa. In 1996 in the United States, textual forensic linguistic analysis was used to identify the writer of the Unabomber’s manifesto as Ted Kaczynski, and he was subsequently convicted of running a bombing campaign across the country.
In the United Kingdom, too, textual forensic linguistics has been used in investigations of serious counter-terrorism cases. In 2004, for example, Dhiren Barot was arrested in London and charged on the basis of linguistic evidence linking him to the writing of a conspiracy document. He later admitted to plotting to bomb the New York stock exchange, the International Monetary Fund headquarters and the World Bank, among other targets.
The United Kingdom’s forensic science regulator role was created in 2007 by the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier). It is good that some progress has been made, but on this issue, Mr Speaker, it is time to put the regulator to work. The Bill would enable the statutory agencies to use information and evidence that they gather through the medium of forensic linguistics to protect more children from predatory adults, and to protect the British public from the likelihood of events such as those that happened recently in Brussels, Paris, Istanbul, Kabul and Pakistan. I commend the Bill to the House.'

Forensic Linguistics (Standards) - Hansard

Hansard (the Official Report) is the edited verbatim report of proceedings of both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. Daily Debates from Hansard are published on this website the next working day.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200807215406/https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2016-04-20/debates/16042035000001/ForensicLinguistics(Standards

RealFeminist · 22/04/2024 12:15

Looks like it never got past 2nd reading:

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/1766

Datun · 22/04/2024 12:20

I'm not tecky at all, but if they are saying, that they are going to specifically use the information in order to identify the same linguistics across usernames and forums, then surely it's a no brainer that that's misuse under GDPR.

If a person posts about an employment tribunal in one place, and then that they are a CEO in another, and then posts about single sex spaces in a third, then that information could easily be used to identify them. Isn't that a slam dunk under 'Personally identifiable information.'

I know it goes against the site's T&Cs, too. What are the repercussions of that?

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