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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

1000 replies

IwantToRetire · 18/04/2024 17:32

By Aston Institute for Forensic Linguistics

It has been suggested that the forum-style parenting website Mumsnet is a hub for ‘gender-critical’ feminism, which directly opposes transgender rights, to be practised with little moderation (Livingston, 2018). This presentation reports on the initial stages of a project aiming to investigate that the potential intensification of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet may lead to further marginalisation of transgender people offline (Powys Maurice, 2021). Though studies of non-linguistic transphobic rhetoric on Mumsnet (e.g., Pedersen, 2022; Mackenzie, 2019), and discourse analyses of other radical online communities (e.g., Krendel, 2020) have both occurred, this project is the first to analyse linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet. It also contributes to existing literature surrounding UK-based ‘gender-critical’ feminism; linguistic transphobia; and radical online community discourses.

The presentation explores the rise of potentially ‘gender-critical’ linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet over time through the corpus linguistic (CL) analysis of the ‘Feminism: Sex & Gender Discussions’ board, using three corpora comprising a fifteen-year timeframe: 2008-2013; 2013-2018; and 2018-2023. As the project is still ongoing, preliminary findings will be presented, namely a comparative overview of trends yielded in frequency analyses. Overall, this presentation provides insights into the growing commonality of potentially ‘gender-critical’ feminist rhetoric on Mumsnet and its effect on increasing transphobic discourse on the site.

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-corpus-assisted-discourse-analysis-of-linguistic-transphobia-on-mumsnet-tickets-880795271367?aff=ebdssbdestsearch

(I had just finished my favourite tea time treat of catching up on FWR and was going to get back to the grindstone when this popped up on my feed. So have come back as it is too good not to be shared. Enjoy!)

A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

The talk explores the rise of potentially ‘gender-critical’ linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet over time through a corpus linguistic analysis

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-corpus-assisted-discourse-analysis-of-linguistic-transphobia-on-mumsnet-tickets-880795271367?aff=ebdssbdestsearch

OP posts:
Thread gallery
83
RethinkingLife · 20/04/2024 10:06

Talulahalula · 20/04/2024 08:06

I consider myself to do exactly that 😀
i mean, when i read Pedersen’s paper (posted on the Site Stuff thread by ArabellaScott) I felt somewhat patronised that she made a research point out of the fact that MN users had more than superficial knowledge about the history of the suffrage campaign and individual campaigners. Why on earth would we not?

[edited to add: it is ‘lived experience’ shared by women to support other posters and to cope themselves, shared in good faith I am more concerned about here]

Edited

Pedersen posted on the thread about another paper

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4478528-theyve-got-an-absolute-army-behind-them-womens-cooperative-constellation-in-Scotland

Suffragette paper was about this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3379775-Im-conflicted-about-suffragettes-WSPUs-violence-and-adopting-their-flag-colours-for-contemporary-purposes

Publication “It’s what the suffragettes would have wanted”: the construction of the suffragists and suffragettes on Mumsnet": www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14680777.2022.2032788 (it is open access so freely available)

'they've got an absolute army behind them' - women's cooperative constellation in Scotland | Mumsnet

An interesting paper on grassroots organising in Scotland in light of GRA reform: 'a new women's cooperative constellation has been established in...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4478528-theyve-got-an-absolute-army-behind-them-womens-cooperative-constellation-in-Scotland

RealFeminist · 20/04/2024 10:08

Hre is Prof Tim Grant discussing some of the ethics of cross-referencing/identifying people online, doxxing, etc:

'this is a really really tough problem. We've been trying to work on something recently which is operational to help do this kind of thing and it is really really hard to know what to do,

We have some idea that the use of Idi and (?) is really useful for this okay and we have some idea that refining profiles will be really useful for this but I'm
hoping that in the next 10 or 15 years we'll be able to do this I don't think it's a short project maybe 5 to 10 years if we're really good, okay, and get lots and lots of money - any funders in the room?

Yeah okay so this is the idea of author search but it raises a really important problem as to whether we should be doing this now this is pretty big Big Brother stuff yeah who should we allow to be anonymous on the internet - everyone? why not, yeah and you get this classic idea of a right to privacy which is enshrined in European rights, yeah, even when we all put our lives on the internet we still have a right to privacy and so I've got a right to put my life on the internet anonymously if I choose.

Okay and some areas of the internet are particularly Fierce about
this so on Reddit which is an a big really big internet forum and they have rules against doxing someone doxing someone is to document their identity offline okay and you get trashed if you dox people. reveal who they really are there's a real uh sort of ethical stance that doxing is wrong you can talk about a sort of utilitarian balance of harms um and good so sometimes intrusion this sort of intrusion I'm talking about might be seen as a lesser harm yeah than the harms of online child abusers and I think most people would think that okay, but it's still dangerous, and for me I struggle with the idea that a lesser harm becomes a good, and we've been working with applied ethicists at Waret[?] University and a guy called Chris [?] and he, too, talks about the ethical residue that the utilitarian position leaves: I'm doing something bad but it's not as bad as that, yeah, and that's uncomfortable. And he's developed a idea for which he applies to undercover policing and other Co operations of what he calls an ethical liability model and he takes the idea of self-defense.

Okay so if someone comes at you with a knife you've most people's intuitions is ethically you can harm that person to stop them harming you okay and that's
not about a balance of harm their action means they take on that
liability okay they are liable in an ethical sense not a legal sense but an ethical sense for the harm that they end up receiving.

Now I think this is an interesting idea okay and when you consider debates about privacy and intrusion I think it's a idea that's missing from those debates okay so if you take the authorship analysis world we recently had the Italian author Elena fente who was exposed who was writing anonymously and she seemed to need that Anonymous space to be creative to produce the novels that everyone loved and a journalist does the work and works at it and works it and goes and reveals her to the world and she says she's no longer able to work.

Okay that is something most people will believe is on balance a bad thing you
get your internet trolls where there's a huge Spectrum you get people taking the Mickey out of Ed Bull's performance on Strictly Come dance yeah to me that seems fair game and I don't really mind if people are doing that anonymously okay but then you get celebrities who are pregant who are sent pictures of dead
babies yeah so trolling isn't one thing it's a real Spectrum yeah at some point do your actions what you say or where you say it does that lead to your liability to
intrusive acts?

Now I can't provide the answers to those questions but I think those are the social discussions we need to have about the online World anonymity versus privacy to think in terms of liability. What makes you liable, this clearly makes you liable for any action we can do to find you this clearly doesn't I'd like the ethicist to work on what are the criteria in the middle here that uh allow us to do so without having the dirty hands the ethical residue, okay, which leads back to what I said at the beginning that forensic Linguistics is an attempt to improve the delivery of Justice if we just deanonimize Elena fente we're not doing that yeah but if we de-anonymize the anonymous guy abusing Children online I think we can be very content we are.'

[transcript c&p'd from youtube, my bold for emphasis, I've edited a bit of the grammar but cba doing it all, suggest checking against the vid if you want to be sure of accuracy]

So this is their self justification.

They think it's okay to misuse/abuse the data of women of Mumsnet because they've done an ethical assessment from a biased, prejudiced position that has already decided we are 'transphobic', then they've used that justification to go ahead and scrape data without seeking consent. Then they'll use that data to bolster their pre existing conclusion - that MN is 'transphobic' and further, they'll claim that the site is full of 'hate crime'.

Fuck that noise.

Inaugural Lecture - Prof Tim Grant - Anonymous is Dead

Tim Grant shares his thoughts on the death of anonimity in this Inaugural Lecture.

https://youtu.be/0r32PDyV9wU?si=DIYFQdXDIISz4l8u&t=2540

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 20/04/2024 10:09

To be fair though, there are still huge unresolved ethical questions when it comes to research that uses algorithms and Big Data and (supposedly) doesn't identify individuals.

Perhaps Eden could pivot to that, if her dataset suddenly and mysteriously becomes unavailable to her.

WarriorN · 20/04/2024 10:10

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/04/2024 09:46

One of the chaps who archived Mumsnet seems to work largely on trying to cross reference and identify people across different platforms.

There's a reference on Twitter to his "discourse analysis" being used in a magistrate's court but no details.

x.com/aifl_aston/status/1291025186276466693?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

That's concerning. A certain Manchester based 'poet' re bumped a thread where posters had signed a sex matters petition, with "signed." Which can be re used to cross reference names of those who used their real names on the petition.

I did report it and kept screen shots.

WarriorN · 20/04/2024 10:12

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 20/04/2024 09:11

My question to these researchers, is why mumsnet? Why womens data?

Misogyny, hatred of women and particularly mothers. Obviously.

They'll spend hours researching everything "wrong" we've done that threatens them but not things that relate to our health and safety based on biological differences, eh.

DrBlackbird · 20/04/2024 10:12

OldHabitsDieScreaming · 18/04/2024 17:42

I mean, if I was Eden Palmer's PhD supervisor I might be suggesting they need to be supporting their argument with more robust sources than clickbait articles from Vice and Penis News, but what the hell do I know?

😭 that a PhD candidate cites Vice and Punk News as evidence for claims… and shame on Aston for allowing their PhD candidate to do so in a description of a public talk.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 20/04/2024 10:14

Ooh - do I foresee an internal stushie at Aston?

MumsNetters discuss highly sensitive private and personal matters involving our children. We are not criminals. We have a very strong claim for maximum privacy.

RealFeminist · 20/04/2024 10:14

WarriorN · 20/04/2024 10:12

They'll spend hours researching everything "wrong" we've done that threatens them but not things that relate to our health and safety based on biological differences, eh.

Imagining wading through threads where users have disclosed a history of sexual abuse or domestic violence, looking for thoughtcrimes like asserting that one can't change sex, and men are the perpetrators of 99% of sexual assault.

Will they be using discussions of the Isla Bryson case from rape survivors as evidence of our 'hate crime'?

SoupDragonsFriend · 20/04/2024 10:14

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 20/04/2024 10:05

Perhaps she's aiming for balance - one researcher gets the ethics right, another demonstrates how to mess them up?

I should have thought of that.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 20/04/2024 10:15

SqueakyDinosaur · 20/04/2024 09:48

I'm sure it's been said upthread, but I for one am deeply, deeply impressed by the intellectual rigour of a study which:

  1. Displays bias in the second sentence ("that" instead of "whether") of its description
  2. Leads its 5-item bibliography with an article from vice.com
  3. Ends its 5-item bibliography with a Pink News piece on how to write a complaint letter about transphobia.
Edited

There’s also the misrepresentation of Pedersen 2022 as a ‘study of transphobic rhetoric’, in a dishonest attempt to give credence to her subject as an area of study.

RealFeminist · 20/04/2024 10:16

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 20/04/2024 10:15

There’s also the misrepresentation of Pedersen 2022 as a ‘study of transphobic rhetoric’, in a dishonest attempt to give credence to her subject as an area of study.

Yes. If I were Sarah Pederson I'd be pretty pissed off about that. Should someone let her know?

KellieJaysLapdog · 20/04/2024 10:22

SoupDragonsFriend · 20/04/2024 09:56

This document, mentioned in Eden's bibliography on the EventBrite page, is available on ResearchGate:
Mackenzie, J. (2019). Language, Gender and Parenthood Online : Negotiating Motherhood in Mumsnet Talk, Routledge Focus on Language and Social Media. Abingdon: Routledge.

It doesn't matter whether or not Mackenzie is supportive of MN or not. She recognises some of the very basic issues in her acknowledgements where she writes:
'Special thanks go to the Mumsnet users who allowed me to reproduce their posts, originally written with quite a different audience in mind, in the Mumsnet study. Thanks particularly to BertieBotts and freespirit, whose generous engagement with my research cannot be underestimated in the development of my approach to internet research ethics. I would also like to thank Mumsnet for giving permission to use these posts, as well as the Mumsnet logo.'

Eden has cited this paper, it isn't as if she can't be aware.

I had a brief look online last week and there is tons of stuff out there re: the ethics of scraping data that is publicly accessible but was not published with the intent of being used in future research, eg this 2022 document from LSE: https://info.lse.ac.uk/staff/divisions/research-and-innovation/research/Assets/Documents/PDF/ethics-Using-internet-and-Social-media-data-v8.pdf

Seems like there is generally a lot of emphasis on anonymising any data used?

Of course, this particular department at Aston has been taking anonymous data with the express intent of de-anonymising it.

Auto Doxing Machine Guys probably thought they were being benign, essentially just testing out a couple of tools on Mummy-data with the intent of those tools eventually being used to catch actual criminals, eg the paedos and white supremacist terrorists and mass shooters that the forensic linguistic types usually study.

Instead, an ideologically captured PhD candidate (they/them) who already believes Hate Crime has occurred on Mumsnet is using the tools for catching paedos and the MN scraped data to prove that Mummies Do Hate Crime (or at least, incite other people to do hate crime, the way her supervisor says hunting enthusiasts incite slightly less enthusiastic people to go out illegally hunting with hounds).

I’d like to hear what the Auto Doxing Guys think of this use of ‘their’ data. FoLD states that Data Donors can withdraw their data at any time. I’d like to think they would be rather horrified - it’s seems to me that the PhD student is involved in a Witchhunt (Terfhunt) as they/them doesn’t seem to believe there is even a slim possibility that witches aren’t real.

What happens to an incomplete PhD project if the dataset the author was using was withdrawn from the repository mid project?

https://info.lse.ac.uk/staff/divisions/research-and-innovation/research/Assets/Documents/PDF/ethics-Using-internet-and-Social-media-data-v8.pdf

RethinkingLife · 20/04/2024 10:23

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 20/04/2024 10:14

Ooh - do I foresee an internal stushie at Aston?

MumsNetters discuss highly sensitive private and personal matters involving our children. We are not criminals. We have a very strong claim for maximum privacy.

I'm just thinking through the number of people whose performative public stance is that MNers are terrorists and need to be re-educated in gulags (at best).

What would people who cleave to any ideology do with this technology. Given the Chartered Society of Physiotherapists and several NHS Trusts are pledging to drive GC beliefs out of their professions/workplaces, is a tool like this going to be used to scour social media posts before appointment? (Lots of employers demand access to social media for due diligence checks.)

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 20/04/2024 10:25

RealFeminist · 20/04/2024 10:16

Yes. If I were Sarah Pederson I'd be pretty pissed off about that. Should someone let her know?

Good point, I have sent her a message.

RealFeminist · 20/04/2024 10:25

From that talk I posted, this unit has the potential to do good, useful, worthwhile work. I have in mind identifying the lies of a murdered woman's abusive husband, for example.

But this debacle has highlighted precisely some of the issues with their approach, and they should use this to reflect and improve their processes going forward.

There are ethical considerations that you can't just sweep aside by deciding that you're the good guy and some other subset of society are the bad guys/bad mummies and therefore you can ignore the rules.

SinnerBoy · 20/04/2024 10:27

RealFeminist · Yesterday 20:26

That's from 2022, and the 'data donors' are named, neither of them are Eden. Sorry for the messy link, it just posts like that!

If you C&P this below and paste it into a new browser, it works:

web.archive.org/web/20220528140334/<a class="break-all" href="https://fold.aston.ac.uk/handle/123456789/18%22" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">fold.aston.ac.uk/handle/123456789/18

SinnerBoy · 20/04/2024 10:28

Ah, Bolleaux! It pasted as plain, sorry!

RealFeminist · 20/04/2024 10:28

How does the University/institute identify groups it considers 'bad guys' and how does it decide when it's okay to suspend ethical (and legal) considerations because of their subjective moral judgement on the morality of said group? Who made them judge and jury?

How does a phD student get to decide we are guilty of 'hate crime' and therefore they are self justified in scraping/using/recording our data?

What if the academic is themself guilty of prejudice/bigotry, and applying that to a certain group of people? In that scenario, someone can discriminate against a group because they self identify as the 'good guy'? I don't think so.

RealFeminist · 20/04/2024 10:29

SinnerBoy · 20/04/2024 10:28

Ah, Bolleaux! It pasted as plain, sorry!

Here, have a non verbal communication. 😄

A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet
SinnerBoy · 20/04/2024 10:30

Hurrah! It works! I pasted the link into Textpad, saved it, then copied it.

DeanElderberry · 20/04/2024 10:30

BettyFilous · 20/04/2024 08:03

If they are looking at idiolect then the tool could, in theory, be used to link an individual across multiple sites. Multiple nicknames on a single site too. In the context of TRA and the real life doxxing which has occurred in the past, this is not a resource which ideologically motivated researchers should be trusted with.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiolect

Indeed. A deranged person from a site I used to post on took exception to something I said here, posted a screenshot of it there, and then posted a link here to her screenshot post there.

Yes, as I said deranged.

So that's me already linked to another online community.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 20/04/2024 10:32

Mind you, it could be entertaining/illuminating if the research and technology actually identified TRA socks, Tory party socks, found a strong correlation between TWAW posters also posting on Incel forums, the numbers of PhD students having plagiarised their degrees/falsified research and <puke> the same people on the internet encouraging children/campaigning for physical changes have a longstanding history of involvement in the production and sharing of images and acts of child sexual abuse.

Or that whoever is in power in the future uses the technology in an even more awful way - such as identifying who should be purged for being Jewish/Communist/Gay/non-Gender conforming/etc. And yes, that could also include identifying trans people for extermination. This obviously not being entertaining, more absolutely fucking terrifying - and it's not as if it's unheard of in history.

What linguistic devices should be used then? FO/FO? Hoist by one's own petard? Be careful what you wish for? Now I am become the Destroyer of Wor(l)ds?

What they could be creating is a thought based Mutually Assured Destruction device. You think that you're creating a means to identify and silence people who don't agree with you, but then realise that you've created something that will cause your entire world to implode.

RealFeminist · 20/04/2024 10:35

NeverDropYourMooncup · 20/04/2024 10:32

Mind you, it could be entertaining/illuminating if the research and technology actually identified TRA socks, Tory party socks, found a strong correlation between TWAW posters also posting on Incel forums, the numbers of PhD students having plagiarised their degrees/falsified research and <puke> the same people on the internet encouraging children/campaigning for physical changes have a longstanding history of involvement in the production and sharing of images and acts of child sexual abuse.

Or that whoever is in power in the future uses the technology in an even more awful way - such as identifying who should be purged for being Jewish/Communist/Gay/non-Gender conforming/etc. And yes, that could also include identifying trans people for extermination. This obviously not being entertaining, more absolutely fucking terrifying - and it's not as if it's unheard of in history.

What linguistic devices should be used then? FO/FO? Hoist by one's own petard? Be careful what you wish for? Now I am become the Destroyer of Wor(l)ds?

What they could be creating is a thought based Mutually Assured Destruction device. You think that you're creating a means to identify and silence people who don't agree with you, but then realise that you've created something that will cause your entire world to implode.

Edited

Something tells me that should anything be turned up that doesn't bolster the predecided outcomes then it will be quietly ignored.

This unit/institute/whatever seems to have set itself up as a moral crusader dedicated to Internet Justice, with a certain narrative already firmly in place.

They're going to prove the mummies are bad, goddamit, no matter how many victims of domestic violence they have to dox to do so.

EasternStandard · 20/04/2024 10:35

NeverDropYourMooncup · 20/04/2024 10:32

Mind you, it could be entertaining/illuminating if the research and technology actually identified TRA socks, Tory party socks, found a strong correlation between TWAW posters also posting on Incel forums, the numbers of PhD students having plagiarised their degrees/falsified research and <puke> the same people on the internet encouraging children/campaigning for physical changes have a longstanding history of involvement in the production and sharing of images and acts of child sexual abuse.

Or that whoever is in power in the future uses the technology in an even more awful way - such as identifying who should be purged for being Jewish/Communist/Gay/non-Gender conforming/etc. And yes, that could also include identifying trans people for extermination. This obviously not being entertaining, more absolutely fucking terrifying - and it's not as if it's unheard of in history.

What linguistic devices should be used then? FO/FO? Hoist by one's own petard? Be careful what you wish for? Now I am become the Destroyer of Wor(l)ds?

What they could be creating is a thought based Mutually Assured Destruction device. You think that you're creating a means to identify and silence people who don't agree with you, but then realise that you've created something that will cause your entire world to implode.

Edited

Why no ‘Labour party socks’?

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