I'm friends with a group of women who are mainly based in the US and Canada, and all politically left leaning. I deliberately do not mention anything to do with gender because I know that they are all very TWAW and would be horrified to learn that I am not. A particular subset of this group are big fans of Harry Potter but by common consensus do not talk about JK Rowling because they're all so disappointed about her stance on this issue.
Recently, however, one of them started a private conversation with me about JK Rowling. We had previously talked about the Cormoran Strike series and in particular about how Troubled Blood is not a transphobic book and the people claiming it is have clearly not read it. Then recently I sent her a message saying that the title of the next book has just been announced.
Out of nowhere, she said she wished JK Rowling would stop being transphobic so everyone could just go back to being a fan. I'm fairly sure that my friend had sensed that my views aren't aligned with those of the rest of the group and was testing me.
I didn't want to lie to my friend, and more importantly I didn't want to take the coward's way out and pretend that I also think JK Rowling is a hateful bigot when she has been so brave in sticking her head above the parapet in front of the entire world on this issue.
So I started by asking my friend whether she had actually read JK Rowling's essay. She replied that she had skim read it, but really, she was just appalled by the whole thing. I said I had read the whole thing because when people started accusing her of transphobia I wanted to find out what she had actually said, and judge for myself. I said I didn't agree that she was transphobic, but that she has serious concerns about women's rights and child safeguarding. I also said that in the UK, the idea that women should have some single sex spaces and sports is one that most people support. My friend said she actually agreed with that.
My friend then said that whilst there might be valid arguments to be made around single sex spaces, the way JK Rowling has expressed her views has been really harmful, especially given the context of the way LGBTQ people are being treated in many parts of America.
I responded by saying that context is important. JK Rowling doesn't live in America, she lives in the UK. In the UK we have no political equivalent of the American right wing, because even our Conservatives are more akin to the US Democrats on both economic and social issues. JK Rowling does not live in America, she doesn't vote in their elections and she's not responsible for who the American people elect to represent them or what they do. She is, however, entitled to have an opinion and to speak about what is happening in her own country, i.e. the UK and more specifically, Scotland.
I then went on to list some of the most concerning things that have happened in the UK and particularly in Scotland over the last few years, with a particular focus on prisons, rape crisis services and Maya Forstater. I told her about what had led to JK Rowling deciding to set up and solely fund Beira's place, and that trans activists had been trying to have it forced to accept male survivors or shut down. I told her all about Mridul Wadhwa, quoting extensively from the horse's mouth.
I also said that JK Rowling is far from the only person to be concerned about irreversible medical interventions being performed on trans identifying children, and expressed my private belief that puberty blockers are likely to be banned across Europe within a few years, given that the UK and France are now following the lead of the Scandinavian countries in putting the brakes on some of these practices, because the long term evidence in favour of them is really not good.
She said she understood all of that but wished that JK Rowling had not chosen this hill to die on, and that even though these issues are important, she feels that the harm caused to the LGBTQ community has been greater than the small benefit to other groups from speaking out. I said I disagreed, and that for female prisoners and rape survivors, as well as children who will now hopefully get more ethically responsible healthcare, these are not small matters.
I finished by picking up on a particular point she had made about JK Rowling suggesting she "doesn't believe trans women are women" and I said that I think the "trans women are women" mantra is actually really harmful to women because we all have our arms twisted to say it, and then the fact that we have said it is used as a justification for taking away our single sex rape crisis support or letting male athletes compete in our sports. I said that a few years ago I would have said that trans women are women but now I think it's a lot more complicated than that and if she's being honest with herself, so does she.
She never replied to that last message but she is continuing to engage with me in the group chat. I am not planning to talk to her about this issue again unless she specifically brings it up. But I privately believe that the message hit home and now she doesn't know what to do with it.
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Conversations about JK Rowling
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 07:52
BeBraveLittlePenguin · 03/04/2024 08:01
And it will get easier every time you have a conversation like this.
Conversation by conversation, women reaching out to women, is the way all of us can do our bit to stop this madness.
RebelliousCow · 03/04/2024 08:29
I'm curious as to when you say 'friends' do you mean social media 'friends' or 'real life' friends.
ManchesterBeatrice · 03/04/2024 08:25
Sounds like you both had a balanced argument, she made her points, you made yours.
Whether you end up agreeing or not, it's still good to have a balenced argument ☺️
Skyellaskerry · 03/04/2024 10:08
I recently listened to the podcast the witch trials of JKR, could you maybe recommend this? I thought it was very balanced and a fascinating listen, and had a US focus too.
Screamingabdabz · 03/04/2024 10:05
I’d love to know what magic unicorns and stardust fly around these people’s heads where they genuinely believe a man can change sex.
Delusional.
You’re a better person than me op. I’m a gobby twat who would call them all misogynistic and then do the tinkly passive aggressive ‘…but we’ll agree to disagree shall we?’ But quite frankly I just couldn’t respect handmaids women like this enough to be in their company.
ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 09:02
I hear reports of at least one pregnancy in California that is the result of a women being raped in jail.
It sounds like you've done really well raising the issues in a measured way, OP. I think as a society we got into this mess over a long period of time, and it often takes a bit if time to think about the issues- actually think, not just chant the mantras and repeat platitudes. What is needed is for people to have those pat statements gently challenged, and them space for them to think it through for themselves.
Personally I think a woman getting raped in prison suggests that the 'right side of history' has gone horribly wrong.
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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 10:22
Well... that's where I think being part of this group has helped me to understand a little better where they are coming from. I've spent enough time talking to them to know that they are kind, they are intelligent, they are interesting, they are funny, and they care deeply about women's rights and about children. So why do they believe this stuff?
In short, I think it is hugely cultural. In the US there are basically two political tribes. There are the conservatives, who are anti trans, anti gay, anti abortion, pro gun and all the rest of it. And then there are the liberals, who shit rainbows. You have to be one or the other. If you're not one, you're the other by default. These women have all grown up in that political landscape. And in their political landscape, the only people openly criticising gender identity theory are conservatives who almost certainly do actually hate trans people, do want everyone to conform to the gender roles associated with their sex, and do want to restrict women's access to contraception and abortion. Speaking out about trans stuff puts you on the same side as people who want to ban abortion.
What these women just do not seem to get is that they are interpreting JK Rowling's views in a context which is not actually applicable to her. In the UK, we have no equivalent of the US Republicans. Nobody is trying to ban abortion. Trans people have all the same rights everyone else has, plus a few extra rights that no one else has. JK Rowling lives in a country where what trans people want has been consistently prioritised, by all political parties, to the detriment of other groups including women and children. And the main opposition to this stuff is coming from left wing feminists like JK Rowling, not religious conservatives.
That, I think, is what these American women just fail to understand.
When I explained some of the context of what is actually happening in Scotland, she admitted that she was not aware of any of that.
I said that if you understand the UK political landscape and how JK Rowling has historically fit into that, i.e. her views on other subjects, her long-term political affiliation to the Labour party etc, the idea that she has been radicalised by the far right into hating trans people just sounds absurd and implausible, which is why people in the UK are a lot more resistant to that idea than people in the US, and more open to listening to what she actually has to say on the matter.
Screamingabdabz · 03/04/2024 10:05
I’d love to know what magic unicorns and stardust fly around these people’s heads where they genuinely believe a man can change sex.
Delusional.
You’re a better person than me op. I’m a gobby twat who would call them all misogynistic and then do the tinkly passive aggressive ‘…but we’ll agree to disagree shall we?’ But quite frankly I just couldn’t respect handmaids women like this enough to be in their company.
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 07:52
I'm friends with a group of women who are mainly based in the US and Canada, and all politically left leaning. I deliberately do not mention anything to do with gender because I know that they are all very TWAW and would be horrified to learn that I am not. A particular subset of this group are big fans of Harry Potter but by common consensus do not talk about JK Rowling because they're all so disappointed about her stance on this issue.
Recently, however, one of them started a private conversation with me about JK Rowling. We had previously talked about the Cormoran Strike series and in particular about how Troubled Blood is not a transphobic book and the people claiming it is have clearly not read it. Then recently I sent her a message saying that the title of the next book has just been announced.
Out of nowhere, she said she wished JK Rowling would stop being transphobic so everyone could just go back to being a fan. I'm fairly sure that my friend had sensed that my views aren't aligned with those of the rest of the group and was testing me.
I didn't want to lie to my friend, and more importantly I didn't want to take the coward's way out and pretend that I also think JK Rowling is a hateful bigot when she has been so brave in sticking her head above the parapet in front of the entire world on this issue.
So I started by asking my friend whether she had actually read JK Rowling's essay. She replied that she had skim read it, but really, she was just appalled by the whole thing. I said I had read the whole thing because when people started accusing her of transphobia I wanted to find out what she had actually said, and judge for myself. I said I didn't agree that she was transphobic, but that she has serious concerns about women's rights and child safeguarding. I also said that in the UK, the idea that women should have some single sex spaces and sports is one that most people support. My friend said she actually agreed with that.
My friend then said that whilst there might be valid arguments to be made around single sex spaces, the way JK Rowling has expressed her views has been really harmful, especially given the context of the way LGBTQ people are being treated in many parts of America.
I responded by saying that context is important. JK Rowling doesn't live in America, she lives in the UK. In the UK we have no political equivalent of the American right wing, because even our Conservatives are more akin to the US Democrats on both economic and social issues. JK Rowling does not live in America, she doesn't vote in their elections and she's not responsible for who the American people elect to represent them or what they do. She is, however, entitled to have an opinion and to speak about what is happening in her own country, i.e. the UK and more specifically, Scotland.
I then went on to list some of the most concerning things that have happened in the UK and particularly in Scotland over the last few years, with a particular focus on prisons, rape crisis services and Maya Forstater. I told her about what had led to JK Rowling deciding to set up and solely fund Beira's place, and that trans activists had been trying to have it forced to accept male survivors or shut down. I told her all about Mridul Wadhwa, quoting extensively from the horse's mouth.
I also said that JK Rowling is far from the only person to be concerned about irreversible medical interventions being performed on trans identifying children, and expressed my private belief that puberty blockers are likely to be banned across Europe within a few years, given that the UK and France are now following the lead of the Scandinavian countries in putting the brakes on some of these practices, because the long term evidence in favour of them is really not good.
She said she understood all of that but wished that JK Rowling had not chosen this hill to die on, and that even though these issues are important, she feels that the harm caused to the LGBTQ community has been greater than the small benefit to other groups from speaking out. I said I disagreed, and that for female prisoners and rape survivors, as well as children who will now hopefully get more ethically responsible healthcare, these are not small matters.
I finished by picking up on a particular point she had made about JK Rowling suggesting she "doesn't believe trans women are women" and I said that I think the "trans women are women" mantra is actually really harmful to women because we all have our arms twisted to say it, and then the fact that we have said it is used as a justification for taking away our single sex rape crisis support or letting male athletes compete in our sports. I said that a few years ago I would have said that trans women are women but now I think it's a lot more complicated than that and if she's being honest with herself, so does she.
She never replied to that last message but she is continuing to engage with me in the group chat. I am not planning to talk to her about this issue again unless she specifically brings it up. But I privately believe that the message hit home and now she doesn't know what to do with it.
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