Motherhood is a trap. Marriage is a bad deal. Feminist Corinne Maier on learning to be selfish

[IwantToRetire]

The French feminist provocateur’s ‘indecent’ insistence that women should prioritise themselves is jubilantly liberating

#MeFirst! A Manifesto For Female Selfishness has managed to work up even the famously laissez-faire French, with critics branding it “indecent” and “a mockery of devoted mothers”, and commenders heralding it “liberating” and “jubilatory”.

Maier is telling women to be “negligent, casual and lazy”, to “minimise the time you devote to others” – including “elderly family members” – to give up “trying to maximise your child’s potential” and “escape the role your mothers were trapped into playing”.

In #MeFirst!, she questions why, despite having worked through so many waves of feminism that no one knows where we are anymore, little girls still aren’t being taught “to get their claws out” in verbal terms: “How to have your say in a hostile environment, how to speak at length without being interrupted, how to take the lead in a group.”

“Remember that empathy,” Maier “is just one of the supposed ‘caring’ qualities we’ve had projected onto us. Qualities that happen to be very convenient for men.”

the chapters on husbands in #MeFirst!, the ones that point out how beneficial marriage is for men, and how detrimental it is for women on every level – right down to life expectancy.

Just some quotes from quite a long interveiw - see https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/corinne-maier-feminism-motherhood-marriage-selfish-women/

Full article can also be read at https://archive.ph/B1LmG

I don't disgaree with any of that, and all those needs of women should be addressed. But most of those will also be mothers.

And the 'most women' you reference remain, and most of them are mothers and that has significant material impact on everything.

Mothers aren't more important, but in terms of the fact it impacts most women signifcntaly it's would logically have the most benefit for most women if it was centred in womens issues.

Well that seems like a women treating other women shittly at work issue.
Or a women treating a childless person at work shittly.
Or an Hr treating a childless person shittly issue.

I'm not sure how it's a women's issue unless the claim is childless men don't get put upon at work but childless women do?

That's disingenuous. By that reasoning, any aspect of motherhood other than pregnancy/childbirth/breast-feeding, could happen to a man. But it rarely does, does it, because of our different expectations about parenthood for men.

Men are allowed to be both parents and whatever their other roles are - work, hobbies, friend, whatever. There is no social penalty for them if fatherhood is not always their number one priority. And no social penalty (in the UK at least), if they choose not to have kids.

Women pay a huge social penalty if they don't always prioritise motherhood/caring responsibilities. The very act of calling it selfish, as Maier would point out, is gendered, because we would not describe men as selfish if they did the same. And of course, harridans who choose not to have children at all are not real women.

That's why it's so regressive to say that we should centre motherhood in everything. The problem is we already do - just not in a way that helps women.

Instead, we need a society that allows women the flexibility to centre caring responsibilities when they need/want to do so, but that also allows them the autonomy and personal freedom to put other aspects of their lives first at other times.

Several years ago under another username i posted about my ex timing me in the shower. Now what do you think the reaction was. Do you think he got loads of support (like the thread you mentioned) or do you think i got told he was controlling

THIS!

Look, I made that same point in my first post: Even deciding not to be a mother is unique to women. It's not quite the same, or seen as the same, as deciding not to be a father.

Even childless women are defined by not being mothers.

And I agree with this:
Instead, we need a society that allows women the flexibility to centre caring responsibilities when they need/want to do so, but that also allows them the autonomy and personal freedom to put other aspects of their lives first at other times.

Becuase if you reread it carefully it mean thinking about managing motherhood.

And is essentially what I said here:
how do we ensure it doesn't define us, how do we balance it with our other roles and aspirations, how does it impact our decisions around ralstionships with men, what should be the governments role in supporting it,

So I'm not sure why you're taking such offence.

First of all, it’s horrible that even happened.
And good for the op for holding her ground!

I’ve seen, heard and expirienced so many times how people (often times it’s only women) who are being treated and seen as a second class citizens if they don’t have children, like their lives and time don’t matter.
This kind of thinking seems to be impossible to get rid off.

Family friendly is a red flag!

@JenniferBooth I don't agree with mother's stance on that thread, but that's a separate thing to posters on there, advising the OP to tell her mother that since she brings no money in, she doesn't get a say!

I'm not offended. I just think it's incredibly regressive to say, as you did upthread, that:

It [motherhood] should be at the centre of everything we think about when we think about women.

That's a slogan from Gilead, not feminism.

That's a slogan from Gilead, not feminism.

It is if you take it out of context from everything else that was said which entirely aligns with everything you said.

Yes, then you get to act all outraged, bring in handmaidens and decalre things not feminism.

I'll hand back my feminism badge and put my bonnet on then shall I?

Fucking ridiculous.

Family friendly is a red flag!

But this is feminism I presume?
It's a topsy turvy old world.

It sounds too me as if you definition of 'feminism' is predicated on minimising, eradicating, or even denying the differenecs between males and females? I get that, we've all been there......as a result of the traditional female roles being denigrated and devalued, and because of the fact that whilst we are human females, we are also human beings - with potential in many arenas.

Though here is also a version feminism which seeks to celebrate and value what makes women valuable in their essential femaleness. A woman is an adult human female. Girls and women go through a differnt kind of puberty to boys and men and that sexual and biological development has certain consequences - one of which is pregnancy, chilbirth and motherhood. Why should women not celebrate womanhood in this way, and see it as valuable, and god forbid, even satisfying?

Mothers aren't more important

ok, to throw a bit of grenade in here 😉. Mothers are more important because they are that - mothers. Or at least the role of mother is one of the most important roles there is. We cannot pretend there is not another group at play here other than mothers and fathers and childless individuals; babies and children, the next generation. Yes we could be neglectful mums (and dads) but society pays for that. We could farm them out to the state to bring up - the SNP/Greens/gender ideologues would love to indoctrinate them. The state is VERY bad at bringing up children and the consequences are worse for society than simply having neglectful parents.

Motherhood should not be valued simply because it is a woman’s choice and such choices should be respected. Motherhood should be valued because it is ultimately what stands between freedom and a totalitarian state.

So explain what you mean then, instead of getting all snippy because people (not just me) disagree with what you wrote.

There is a massive difference between supporting women who are mothers versus saying that, [motherhood] should be at the centre of everything we think about when we think about women.

My guess is that you got a bit carried away when you wrote this, now realise that it was wrong but, instead of having the grace to admit that, you are sniping at people who have queried it.

You'd think I'd only written that one line.

Instead of a whole post around it which agreed with your later post.

And then another post showing you how.

But still yu demand that I explain and declare that you've caught me out.

Nah. Just keep reading what I've already written, you may finally unedrstahnd the view in context.

Or keep repeating one line in grand outrage and accusations of Gilead.
Whatevs.

I don’t understand where this narrative of “mothers are praised over childless women” comes from.

I understand that society looks at a woman one way when they choose not to have children and people become very invasive and question why - but motherhood does not come with a trophy - it’s a very complex intersection that, like many, seems to only earn the sympathy from those that have experienced how imbalanced it is when you suddenly become a mum - it barely comes with respect unless you are a woman that has “balanced it all” and come across as superwoman. Whilst society tells women to have children, when we finally do, the same society wipes their hands from us - unless you are from a more collective culture whereby a village exists to raise children and women are supported - and there is a community in place that values childcare etc. All of this has been made to become a woman’s issue as we physically become pregnant and annoyingly seem to be more programmed by nature to care about our children in comparison to a majority of men.

whether you have children or not, children has become “the woman’s issue”.

I feel like my domestic life functions this way. By some stroke of luck/sense I chose a man who is willing to do 80% of the menial housework and I'd estimate 70% of the normal childcare (evenings, weekends) even though he is the higher earner and works longer hours than me.

In exchange, my task is to do the mental load stuff, making sure we have food (we share cooking it equally), admin tasks are done, I know what is happening when, holidays are planned and soforth. I work full time also. It also falls upon me, usually, to drop work to deal with sickness unless there is something important I can't miss. I will end up doing the school runs when that time comes.

I feel like this is an equal distribution, though one side is more mental, the other more physical. They take similar amounts of time. Why should women be expected to do all of it?

DH happened to take a lot of paternity leave, forced by covid - so was fully capable of looking after the baby exactly as competently as I was, and this continued. I am sure he would still have been hands on but it would have taken a lot longer as he would have had less time to learn and bond with the rhythm of a child, it's hard to just take over without that.

I do wonder though, if some men from some walks of life would not be suitable left fully in charge of a baby without the mother to supervise. I would like to think we could eventually have these men accept a nurturing role down the generations. But maybe it is just not how most of them are built? So do we risk children for the sake of it? Or do we accept that it is the role of a mother, and compensate her properly for the sacrifice?

Not expecting an answer. Just late night pondering. It's easy to think of feminist ideals from a middle class bubble, I often do. Then I remember (usually through the stark reality of my line of work) that many, many (most?) women live in pretty dire circumstances with pretty... not very nice... men. So if we're designing a better system it ought to take that into account.

It depends upon the marriage, no?
My first marriage was absolutely horrific in every way. Note to self: make sure your husband definitely isn't a misogynist!
I was very young and incredibly naive.
My second marriage is fantastic; all about teamwork and seeing each other as totally equal. We both work, we both share childcare and domestic chores.
Love, love, love being a part of that team!

Motherhood should be paid like carers are paid. It is a difficult and necessary job in our society and we have allowed it to be denigrated and dismissed.

The article had a summary. The purpose of a summary is to pique interest. My interest was not piqued, if anything the polar opposite.

You could've just ignored my comment and moved on with your day, but I guess instead sarcasm/snark was necessary?

Apologies what I said offended you so much I suppose :S

What bollocks. Most other women don't even recognise that we have the right to flexible working or bank holidays off for example. More of that will not benefit us.

I guess if she ends dying alone and neglected she will know she has done well.

I think more gets lost in translation though. Yes, people used to all work, but not necessarily be employed.

Most of the SAHM I know aren't actually doing nothing, and they weren't even i the years when middle class stay at home mothers were fairly common. They are working, but in the home, or possibly in the community, rather than in employment. They may even be doing things like working on a big allotment, or home educating, which you could, if you wanted to, pencil out an amount of money it would equate to (as you could with providing childcare.)

Mothers who could just recline and be at leisire, I would suggest, haven't been common at any time.

I agree. Choosing to have children (and thankfully it is still a choice in the UK) you are making a commitment to those children. For some people this is a version putting themselves first because it's what they want... that's empowerment.

Even though I tend to be suspicious of extreme rhetoric, I think her point about saying no, is important. What I hear a lot of on MN and I have experienced in my life is that outside of motherhood, which is a caring role, women are the default domestic carers for everyone. Unlike other more traditional job roles, there is no retirement, and it is fully accepted that caring for others is exhausting. A good example of this unconscious bias is when I was working with a male health care worker. We were the same level, same training etc. and it was unspoken that assist the female patients with toileting, but he was really upset when I left him to deal with the male patient in the same manner i.e. without a word.

I am interested in how the women and men who are children now, will see this when they are older? Will men (and some women) finally lose that last stubborn stain of misogyny and realise that it's human to care and it doesn't make you less than or weak? Will women lose their misandry tendencies to accept that there are different ways of caring for vulnerable people?