Anti-black racism comparators

[WobbliHead3000]

First of all, I’m not sure where to put this thread as it’s not for ‘Black Mumsnetters’, nor am I willing to be told IABU in the AIBU section. This is for Mumsnet as a whole and those who have used certain arguments when it suits the narrative they truly want to believe.

Anyway. I regularly see comments on other threads about discrimination, anti-semitism, Islamaphobia etc. which point to anti-black racism as the benchmark for successful interventions. Comments like “When a black person says they’ve been discriminated against we accept it, so why not in xxxxx case”, or “Black women are believed”, or “Look at how big the BLM movement was and how much progress has been made since 2020!”. Comments like the aforementioned are regularly used to make out that other forms of racism and discrimination are not supported as much and somehow we (I am black) are ahead of, and get more preferential treatment than other groups.

Following the disgusting comments made by a Tory Donor and the subsequent fallout, I just want to ask mumsnetters to reflect on this and not use this type argument again. The current dialogue, gaslighting of black people and the way Dianne Abbott continues to be treated by both her Labour Party colleagues, the speaker of the house and most MPs should tell you why.

In a month where millions in funding has been announced for MPs and citizens who feel threatened for some reason or other, Dianne - who has been shown to be the target of the most abuse and threats as an MP - has been erased from a conversation about her OWN LIVED experience in a parliamentary debate after being overlooked no less than 46 times. Incredible!

In a month where working definitions have been reworked to suit certain government figures and the protection of some (whether you agree or disagree with the outcomes this is a result of lobbying and pressure), we again are shown that whilst lots of noise can be made, nothing has changed in reality. No one has condemned anyone, statements have been made to separate the comment from the individuals values, and NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

Before anyone says, “But everyone has agreed the comments were racist”, please take a look at some of the commentary surrounding the matter and the multitude of excuses being made. Take a look at the fact that people are debating what should be a very simple matter and acting as if this was a slip of the tongue and he would never have said this if he knew it would get out.

I have many more thoughts however I want to reiterate that anti-black racism, whilst now difficult to deny, is not respected or acted upon in a swift manner or even full stop. Not much will happen, the furore will die down and we will go back to the status quo.

If you don’t stand up for us in the moment, then please do not use us as an example to score points later down the line.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68556911.amp

Yanbu op. There is a hierarchy of racism.

Completely agree OP.
I have mixed feelings about Diane Abbott, her views and policies but huge admiration for her resilience and stamina and her position as a pioneer of black women in politics.

This is one of my favourite political pictures. Diane and Bernie Grant - the first black MPs in the UK.
https://www.dianeabbott.org.uk/about-diane

It's a sorry state of affairs isn't it? I can't see things changing any time soon. In fact I feel we are going the other way. Thank you for tackling it when you see it. I dip in and out depending on the bandwidth I have available.

I regularly see comments on other threads about discrimination, anti-semitism, Islamaphobia etc. which point to anti-black racism as the benchmark for successful interventions. Comments like “When a black person says they’ve been discriminated against we accept it, so why not in xxxxx case”

I tend to roll eyes and scroll past when I see this. It's isn't worthy of an answer. & Its not the 'Gotcha' they seem to think it is.

There's a hierarchy of racism out there that many actively choose not to see. Diane Abbott tried to address it but it was taken in the wrong way. She could have explained herself better but the way she's been villified is off the scale. To think this woman has received racist hate mail daily for years, and has had to suffer that not being dealt with or taken seriously. She's not even allowed to be weary and make errors sometimes, as others often do. Im really hoping she's doing ok.

I saw that a good few comments supposedly in support of her started with 'I don't like her, but..' The issue isn't whether she's liked or not. Its about a man openly hating on a woman and using racist, inflammatory, incitement language against her. To the point he used the Nazi 'useless eater' phraseology. This country is going backwards.

Gove is banging on about extremists, yet one of the biggest Tory donors has used extremist language, and privilege will allow him to get away with it.

I want to reiterate that anti-black racism, whilst now difficult to deny, is not respected or acted upon in a swift manner or even full stop. Not much will happen, the furore will die down and we will go back to the status quo.

If you don’t stand up for us in the moment, then please do not use us as an example to score points later down the line

Quite.

Partly true? How so?

It’s naïve to think there wouldn’t be a double standard: Starmer is standing on a ticket of rooting out anti-semitism so has to be seen to be taking it seriously in a way that wasn’t done under Corbyn. DA is a prominent figure in the party so he has to address it.

On the other side, the Tories want all the donors they can get and are probably not enormously bothered about the opinions of the people who give it to them.

If you don’t stand up for us in the moment, then please do not use us as an example to score points later down the line

The problem is that everyone buys into relativist racism when it suits them. This is exactly what DA was doing in that letter.

It's unbelievable. Fills me with rage on Diane's behalf. Utterly shameful.

Thank you for sharing what you've noticed and putting it into words- noted - I will be on the look out for this and challenge when I see it

I feel like as a white woman I have nothing of value to add. I have been sickened and saddened by the comments about Diane Abbott this week, not just the ones that were reported.

Diane Abbott is a highly intelligent woman who has achieved so much very much against the odds. The racism is so overt, yet some still deny of obfuscate. It makes me aware that I need to be much more aware of the more hidden racism in society and not to be complacent in trying to root out any traces of racism in myself that I am unaware of.

i will be looking for any books I can read to educate myself so I can be a better ally.

Ps as a white person I've understood the focus of anti black racism to be because black people (especially if darker skinned or if they have other identities that experience discrimination) are treated the worst out of all racialized groups so any work that's done to help combat anti black racism should theoretically trickle down/up/over to the other groups?

Completely agree, OP.

@Dreamscreen Realistically, that is what will happen when so many kinds of discrimination are lumped under racism. It’s unnecessary. Antisemitism can be racism but in 2024 Britain where for the most part Jewish people are accepted as white it’s unhelpful to categorise all antisemitism as racism. Most of the time it is a completely different experience, and that is not to say the former is not important or shouldn’t be called out, it just shouldn’t be done at our expense

These two articles explain it quite well. They are black centred and American focused but still helpful. The first in particular.

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2019-01-31/ty-article-opinion/.premium/tempted-to-compare-anti-semitism-with-anti-black-racism-just-dont/0000017f-db92-df62-a9ff-dfd745970000?v=1710540606587

https://www.heyalma.com/stop-comparing-anti-semitism-and-racism-in-america/

Here's what Laura Bates has said re Diane Abbott situation. It was good to see her speak out as a non-Black Woman.

Not necessarily because expressions of racism are different towards different ethnicities. Sometimes there will be a conflict of interest.

This is a bad example, but let’s a company started making a concerted effort to increase mentorship of poc talent. That could be seen to be exclusionary to Jewish people, but if they were included in an initiative like this, that would be redirecting resources to minority group that already benefits from racial privilege.

The comments made about Diane Abbott were appalling and she has had years of abuse which is of course completely unacceptable.

I do think we need to be careful that the expressions of sympathy for Diane Abbott because of her experiences do not lead to the acceptance of the idea that racism can only be directed against black people. Diane Abbott herself has a blind spot on this - note her unconscionable comments that anti-Semitism is not racism and is simply akin to the pisstaking experienced by ginger people - and I’ve seen a couple of dodgy comments on this thread to the same effect. Sympathy for Diane Abbott but racism must be called out in ALL cases.

Diane was wrong to say other groups do not suffer racism but I have some sympathy for her.

The Forde report published in July 22 highlighted racism against her from senior members of her own party and it appears that this has not been addressed by the party. If so, why not? Against the backdrop of the astonishing level of public abuse she receives I can only imagine the frustration she feels.
I suspect that her comments were borne out of this frustration whilst she watched proper action being taken against anti semitism in the party.

Yawn. The idea that a few crusty old Tory dinosaurs uttering politically incorrect language about black people over their late night whiskeys is a bigger issue than the deep-rooted, ideological, visceral anti-Semitism that infects the Labour Party is ridiculous. Get that dead cat off the table!

What that Tory donor said about Diane Abbott was racist. Unambiguously. However, the constant claims that the Tories are institutionally racist, or “Islamophobic”, is a trick designed to take attention away from the anti-Semitic hatred of the left.

These were your comments on another thread no? This is what I think the problem is with categorising absolutely all antisemitism as racism. It just invites comparison.

Where did anybody say that only black people can experience racism? I am not saying that Jewish people can’t experience racism, I am just saying I do not recognise most experiences characterised as antisemitic in 2024 Britain as being the same as what I face. That doesn’t mean that it’s not important to tackle, or that it is less of a problem, I just don’t think it’s helpful to anyone for it to be described as the same experience all the time.

Maggiethecat
The Forde report published in July 22 highlighted racism against her from senior members of her own party and it appears that this has not been addressed by the party. If so, why not? Against the backdrop of the astonishing level of public abuse she receives I can only imagine the frustration she feels.
I suspect that her comments were borne out of this frustration whilst she watched proper action being taken against anti semitism in the party

Yes it's exactly this. Years upon years of racist and misogynistic abusive mail, including rape and death threats, and to not have any support or strong statement on this by her own Party, and to know within her own Party, racism against her is acceptable. The racism hierarchy = anti-Black racism is not taken seriously and she will have been beyond frustrated to know that she doesn't matter due to the colour of her skin. She's been gaslighted for decades.

& here we are today with extremist racist misogynistic hate speech against her. She's a 70 year old woman and vulnerable to nutters who may see this as a green light to attack her. Hester has bought the Tories and Starmer is simply using this for political pointscoring. So again, she'll be left to fend for herself.

So many of her constituents were outside Hackney Town Hall tonight in support of her. She was very emotional and I hope she does feel supported at least in some way. This must be terrifying for her.

However, the constant claims that the Tories are institutionally racist, or “Islamophobic”, is a trick

Have you not noticed the direction of travel of the Tories these days?

Anti-Semitism is racism. Always.

Of course different people’s experiences of racism will not be identical in every way. But racism is racism, whether it takes the form of anti-black hatred or anti-Semitism.

It’s also not true that every form of racism is equally prevalent at all times and in all situations. Context is important. My comments on the other thread were about the attempts to “equalise” the anti-Semitism in the Labour Party by pointing out racism in the Tories, when it is not on the same scale.

I do agree that it’s unhelpful to immediately reach for comparisons when discussing particular forms of racism though - it’s oppression Olympics. We can all just recognise that the comments about Diane Abbott were disguising racist abuse.

i;m not sure OP that I've really seen people make quite the kind of comparison you are mentioning, with the implication that racism against black people is all addresses.

I think a lot of people think of it as kind of the kick off civil rights movement which inspired and influenced other subsequent rights movements, which is a pretty reasonable thing to say. And part of the reason is because, notwithstanding that there is still racism, there has in the past 100 years been a remarkable and significant shift in public opinion on race issues, and in some places major legal and social changes around that.

There are people who are involved in other movements who hope for a similar trajectory. I don't think that is meant to imply that racism is all done with and in the past.

Starmer is simply using this for political pointscoring. So again, she'll be left to fend for herself.

She was right to call labour out too, disgraceful behaviour.

I’m very pleased that her constituents are supporting her though.

You are spot on OP.

That kind of rhetoric is common on here as well as other platforms - 'If it were black people...', 'No other minority...' .

And yet now it is black people and you have members of the Government stating 'move on', 'Christian forgiveness' and accepting apologies on other demographics behalf.

The gaslighting needs to stop.

I do think we need to be careful that the expressions of sympathy for Diane Abbott because of her experiences do not lead to the acceptance of the idea that racism can only be directed against black people.

Do we though? Is there really a serious danger that ‘I am appalled by the blatant racism and misogyny directed against Diane Abbot’ is going to be taken to mean ‘…and I agree with her about everything.’

People seem to have more trouble expressing unqualified sympathy for Abbott than in some cases. Why is it so difficult to just straight out condemn what has happened to her regardless of what she thinks?

People seem to have more trouble expressing unqualified sympathy for Abbott than in some cases. Why is it so difficult to just straight out condemn what has happened to her regardless of what she thinks?

Exactly.