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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How a loophole in UK law helps out anti-trans activists

141 replies

IwantToRetire · 11/02/2024 01:58

The Equality Act is being used to attack trans people while protecting those that do so

a loophole in the law which allows GC activists to publicly attack trans people while insulating them from criticism or professional consequences in response. The same loophole leaves trans-people without equivalent protection.

This isn’t the fault of the Tribunal. Judges can only apply the law. In all of the above cases, the employers made errors. The result would probably have been the same even without the more extreme impacts of the law. The fault lies with the politicians, who have chosen to demonise trans people rather than grapple with difficult issues. GC activists like to claim they are oppressed by the “woke minority”.

Second, the law permits GC activists to use intemperate (arguably degrading) language to attack trans people but appears to prohibit criticism in response.

Third, while the law protects GCs from suffering professional consequences for their activism, there does not appear to be equivalent protection for trans people, or acknowledgement of the real violence against them to which GCs contribute.

NB - these are only extracts, not the full arguement from the author - who is a Barrister -Sam Fowles. https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/sam-fowles-loophole-uk-law-helps-out-anti-trans-activists/

Also a Director of ICDR which says:

Provide legislators and officials at all levels of government and devolution with non-partisan, concise, accessible, and strategic advice on constitutional and democratic issues.
https://www.icdr.co.uk/about

I wonder if he understands what non partisan means?!

How a loophole in UK law helps out anti-trans activists

The Equality Act is being used to attack trans people while protecting those that do so

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/sam-fowles-loophole-uk-law-helps-out-anti-trans-activists

OP posts:
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Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 12/02/2024 20:21

As we have seen with our golfing fan SH, anybody can describe themselves as a lawyer. It's not a protected title because even though most members of the public would assume a lawyer was either a solicitor or a barrister, in law it's those two specific titles that are protected, because you can only describe yourself as one if you've passed the relevant exams and amassed enough diverse and supervised experience to be admitted to the relevant professional body.

Snowypeaks · 12/02/2024 20:24

That was a good read.

fromorbit · 12/02/2024 20:30

The article has now been taken down. Wisely considering it was defamatory.

Runningwildish · 12/02/2024 20:32

on a tangent, Rachel Mead still needs more carrots in her garden to pay for the final day of her hearing. Defending her rights not to be bullied for stating biological fact

Snowypeaks · 12/02/2024 20:35

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 12/02/2024 20:21

As we have seen with our golfing fan SH, anybody can describe themselves as a lawyer. It's not a protected title because even though most members of the public would assume a lawyer was either a solicitor or a barrister, in law it's those two specific titles that are protected, because you can only describe yourself as one if you've passed the relevant exams and amassed enough diverse and supervised experience to be admitted to the relevant professional body.

Whittle said in the tweet above that belief in the immutability of sex was just a belief - in response to Will Harley saying that the immutability of sex was a fact. So did Whittle not understand that knowing this fact had to be framed as a belief in sex being fixed in order to attract the protection of the EA? That made me suspect that this Professor in Equalities Law has not paid any attention at all to the important ET cases affecting this branch of law.

viques · 12/02/2024 20:40

If Whittle believes that the immutability of sex is just a belief, then one wonders why they didn’t just believe a bit harder instead of having surgery and other expensive interventions to mutate to a different sex. Cheaper and a lot less painful.

CuntingBunting · 12/02/2024 20:41

Snowypeaks · 12/02/2024 20:13

The article read like a DARVO tantrum, but in legalese.

Please, if anyone can be bothered, could you put Dennis Kavanagh's twitter thread into a form that non-TwiX users can read? I would be so grateful.

I'll post the tweets but many are commenting on screenshots, which I'll need to attach in another post:

@SamFowles
, you've written a libellous and legally incoherent attack piece on the gender critical cases in the UK and you should withdraw many of the suggestions you make and correct the public misinformation you've spread here. I'll identify precisely what I mean.

2/ This is a complete misstatement of the law and it's scurrilous for you to suggest any of the cases you list later involved the brave women concerned "attacking" anyone. As a matter of fact the Equality Act protects any belief that passes the Grainger test, not just GC views.

3/It is frankly absurd to compare UK law on free speech to the entirely unrelated question of gender recognition in countries that are not the UK. You may wish to read the Lady Chief Justice's recent comments in the Court of Appeal Criminal Division re political speech on this.

4/This suggestion is unburdened by evidence and is wholly unwarranted. Frankly, how dare you, as Counsel publicly libel decent women like this. Maya, Allison, Rachel, Denis and Professor Phoenix have not publicly attacked anyone. You are lying. This is a lie

5/ This demonstrates a complete, and I would suggest wilful misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the cases. May I remind you in Bailey aggravated damages were ordered. That was no mere "error", that was the ET visiting egregious wrongdoing by an employer with consequences.

6/ Putting aside your disgusting and desperate comparison to anti-Semitism, in this paragraph you descend into ludicrous hyperbole. No piece of case law is affecting anyone's existence, it is frankly ridiculous to see a member of the bar making such a silly overheated claim.

7/ Housing male rapists in the female prison estate is a safety issue. Men in rape crisis centres is a safety and dignity issue. Men in female spaces is a safety issue. Further, I suggest you read@NoXYinXXprisons
's research on the prison population.

8/ I notice here you fail to mention Bailey was entirely correct in what she said. The workshop's very title referenced "the cotton ceiling" which is a TRA concept for lesbians who maintain their same sex boundaries. How dare you not mention Allison was telling the truth.

9/ You don't mention here the ET found this comparison to be a wholly unacceptable instance of workplace harassment. Or that it featured in a long list of appalling behaviour by TRA staff. In failing to mention this, you again misinform.

10/ Legally illiterate again. I challenge you please to cite specifically in any judgment evidence for this ludicrous claim. I want the paragraph number and direct quote please you say justifies this. You cannot go round misinforming the public on law like this.

11/ Singling Maya out here is mendacious. This was a big issue. It was discussed by many including Emma Barnett on Women's hour. Graham merely pointed out that telling rape victims to "reframe their trauma" was wholly unacceptable. The stock attack is also misleading and silly.

12/ It is frankly ludicrous and misleading for you to frame the competing rights claims here as speech versus life. That is legally incoherent and you are simply inflaming matters for clicks. This is appalling behaviour to see from Counsel.

3/ In light of the above, I call on you to correct this misleading piece and apologise to the people you've named here for your gutter suggestions they have done anything other than bring lawful claims which were properly decided in their favour.

14/ Might I also point out Allison Bailey is another member of the bar and she is not here to defend herself. While you shouldn't be libelling anyone, it is particularly disappointing to see you attack Counsel in the way you have and I ask you to reflect on that.

CuntingBunting · 12/02/2024 20:42

RainWithSunnySpells · 12/02/2024 20:17

Oh, bugger it! 😂

Snowypeaks · 12/02/2024 20:55

@CuntingBunting
😂
You get one of these 💐 for your kindness and one of these ⭐ for your fantastic username.

JanesLittleGirl · 12/02/2024 21:15

CuntingBunting · 12/02/2024 20:41

I'll post the tweets but many are commenting on screenshots, which I'll need to attach in another post:

@SamFowles
, you've written a libellous and legally incoherent attack piece on the gender critical cases in the UK and you should withdraw many of the suggestions you make and correct the public misinformation you've spread here. I'll identify precisely what I mean.

2/ This is a complete misstatement of the law and it's scurrilous for you to suggest any of the cases you list later involved the brave women concerned "attacking" anyone. As a matter of fact the Equality Act protects any belief that passes the Grainger test, not just GC views.

3/It is frankly absurd to compare UK law on free speech to the entirely unrelated question of gender recognition in countries that are not the UK. You may wish to read the Lady Chief Justice's recent comments in the Court of Appeal Criminal Division re political speech on this.

4/This suggestion is unburdened by evidence and is wholly unwarranted. Frankly, how dare you, as Counsel publicly libel decent women like this. Maya, Allison, Rachel, Denis and Professor Phoenix have not publicly attacked anyone. You are lying. This is a lie

5/ This demonstrates a complete, and I would suggest wilful misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the cases. May I remind you in Bailey aggravated damages were ordered. That was no mere "error", that was the ET visiting egregious wrongdoing by an employer with consequences.

6/ Putting aside your disgusting and desperate comparison to anti-Semitism, in this paragraph you descend into ludicrous hyperbole. No piece of case law is affecting anyone's existence, it is frankly ridiculous to see a member of the bar making such a silly overheated claim.

7/ Housing male rapists in the female prison estate is a safety issue. Men in rape crisis centres is a safety and dignity issue. Men in female spaces is a safety issue. Further, I suggest you read@NoXYinXXprisons
's research on the prison population.

8/ I notice here you fail to mention Bailey was entirely correct in what she said. The workshop's very title referenced "the cotton ceiling" which is a TRA concept for lesbians who maintain their same sex boundaries. How dare you not mention Allison was telling the truth.

9/ You don't mention here the ET found this comparison to be a wholly unacceptable instance of workplace harassment. Or that it featured in a long list of appalling behaviour by TRA staff. In failing to mention this, you again misinform.

10/ Legally illiterate again. I challenge you please to cite specifically in any judgment evidence for this ludicrous claim. I want the paragraph number and direct quote please you say justifies this. You cannot go round misinforming the public on law like this.

11/ Singling Maya out here is mendacious. This was a big issue. It was discussed by many including Emma Barnett on Women's hour. Graham merely pointed out that telling rape victims to "reframe their trauma" was wholly unacceptable. The stock attack is also misleading and silly.

12/ It is frankly ludicrous and misleading for you to frame the competing rights claims here as speech versus life. That is legally incoherent and you are simply inflaming matters for clicks. This is appalling behaviour to see from Counsel.

3/ In light of the above, I call on you to correct this misleading piece and apologise to the people you've named here for your gutter suggestions they have done anything other than bring lawful claims which were properly decided in their favour.

14/ Might I also point out Allison Bailey is another member of the bar and she is not here to defend herself. While you shouldn't be libelling anyone, it is particularly disappointing to see you attack Counsel in the way you have and I ask you to reflect on that.

Dennis has very kindly used a very sharp knife and applied it with surgical precision.

CuntingBunting · 12/02/2024 21:34

I like 'This suggestion is unburdened by evidence'. I'm going to start using that when my DS says he's done his homework.

RoyalCorgi · 12/02/2024 21:36

I'm still gobsmacked at the word "loophole". That's not what a loophole is. He has failed at the most basic level of understanding the English language.

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2024 21:41

In Wodehouse terms, Fowles' reputation should be a hissing and a byword and a cautionary tale for others.

In reality, programme bookers will continue to book him and his reckons passed off as profound knowledge. "Beating up the keyboard with your fists or head" about covers it.

That Mitchell and Webb Look - Send us your reckons

"Well never mind what she thinks what do YOU reckon?"Copyright BBC. I will remove this video clip if requested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnd5ilKx2Y

CuntingBunting · 12/02/2024 21:46

😂

NoBinturongsHereMate · 13/02/2024 00:12

CuntingBunting · 12/02/2024 21:34

I like 'This suggestion is unburdened by evidence'. I'm going to start using that when my DS says he's done his homework.

It is good, isn't it? I think I will find it applicable in many circumstances.

RethinkingLife · 13/04/2024 21:10

Dropping this in as it may be relevant as to the sources of Sam Fowles' confidence in SF's knowledge of transgender issues.

Admiration from RMW in re: Sam Fowles' performance on Free Speech Nation with Andrew Doyle.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5045440-scottish-hate-crime-bill-andrew-doyle-asks-all-the-right-questions-of-barrister-sam-fowles?

How a loophole in UK law helps out anti-trans activists
How a loophole in UK law helps out anti-trans activists
nauticant · 26/08/2024 11:22

Updating with a very entertainment youtube link:

Sam Fowles was on Free Speech Nation last night. The topic was free speech and Fowles was up against Toby Young. Andrew Doyle laid a massive bear-trap for Fowles and then gently guided him into it and then sprung the trap (at about 8 minutes in). I'm not a big fan of gotchas but this was glorious.

In case anyone's interested here's an archive link to Sam Fowles' article in the New European which was the basis of the bear-trap:

https://archive.ph/aGi8f

including the highlights of Fowles claiming that LGB Alliance "compared being trans to bestiality" and mentioned Forstater, Allison Bailey, Rachel Meade, Denise Fahmy, Jo Phoenix before stating that "GC activists to publicly attack trans people".

MrsOvertonsWindow · 26/08/2024 11:38

That's extremely funny, 😂

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2024 11:46

He really is a piece of work, isn't he? Great work by Andrew Grin

MarieDeGournay · 26/08/2024 11:49

Dennis Kavanagh. Dennis Kavanagh. Say it loud and there's music playing, say it soft.... Grin
What a mensch, what a command of argument and language what a takedown of Sam Fowles. No, I'm not jealous in the slightest, I'm quite happy burbling vague ineffective not-very-coherent critiques of things I don't agree with..🙄

Thank you CuntingBunting for making it accessible.

AlexaAdventuress · 26/08/2024 12:10

Has anyone noticed the uncanny resemblance between Sam Fowles and that other Mumsnet favourite in these pages, Jolyon Maugham? I wonder if by any chance they are related? Maybe they should join forces. Perhaps they already have. . .

Imnobody4 · 26/08/2024 12:14

That was brilliant, a masterclass.

AutumnCrow · 26/08/2024 12:32

I saw this last night after the Sall Grover interview (which was excellent). Thank you so much for the You Tube link so that I can watch it again, @nauticant!

I still have no words for the utter mediocrity, yet apparently stellar career, of 35-year old Dr Sam Fowles.

See also this sickeningly pretentious interview in the New Stateman, firmly situated in the category of 'you couldn't make this shit up':

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/qa/2023/04/importance-democracy-sam-fowles-public-debate-destiny-interview

Here's a sample:

Q: What’s currently bugging you?
SF: That so much of public debate is totally disconnected from the truth.

Sam Fowles: “So much of public debate is disconnected from the truth”

The barrister on Indiana Jones, David Guetta and why you should always go to the bathroom before going into court.

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/qa/2023/04/importance-democracy-sam-fowles-public-debate-destiny-interview

quantumbutterfly · 26/08/2024 12:35

SinnerBoy · 11/02/2024 04:55

GC activists like to claim they are oppressed by the “woke minority

This translates as: Subjected to illegal campaigns of sustained harassment and bullying.

This guy and the truth are strangers, it would seem. I wonder if he got his law degree from one of those 6 week correspondence courses?

I had hoped the BVQ was more rigorous.

Helleofabore · 26/08/2024 12:37

Thanks Nauticant. That was great.

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