Can we talk about "male sexuality"? Trigger warning: fetishes

[Elspyth]

Inspired by recent threads on Debbie Hayton and Andrew Doyle
Hayton describes their self confessed AGP fetish as "a beachball they can't keep under water" and numerous posters on here have said that Doyle/Janice Turner/anyone using preferred pronouns are unwittingly participating in their fetish.

I've seen other male commentators (I think it was Doyle but I am not sure) say that the "beach ball) metaphor resonated with them and women don't get it because they don't understand male sexuality.

It got me wondering about fetishes:

1. are fetishes part of normal male sexuality? I have known quite a few men with them (and there will be more I know that have them, but I don't know)

2. some fetishes are visible (AGP, and exhibitionists) but many aren't (high heel fetishes for example) or are secret (men who plant cameras in womens spaces, or upskirt them) Are heel fetishists who hang around professional settings because of women in heels also nonconsensually exploiting women? What about a man who upskirts a woman? Is it less of a problem if the woman is unaware? Are some fetishes "worse" than others? (Excluding the ones where people are raped or murdered, those ones are definitely worse)

3. Can we/should we try to stop men having fetishes? How do we do that? I think there is quite a lot of comorbidity e.g. men have multiple fetishes. If we crack down on one, will it cause a different one to pop up? Should we see AGP as just one of a range of fetishes or should we treat it differently?

I'm not sure where I sit on this. Personal view is talking about fetishes as male sexuality is centring penis needs and I don't like it. But pragmatically am aware lots of icky fetishists are out their exploiting women without their knowledge so maybe its not possible to expect to avoid them, depressingly.

This is the penultimate DSM, so definitions may have been updated in the most recent one.

https://archive.org/details/diagnosticstatis0005unse/

p685 is 'Paraphiliac disorders'

Sorry, that's the ICD (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems 10th Revision)

F65 is 'Disorders of sexual preference '

https://icd.who.int/browse10/2019/en#/F65

From the ICD:

'Fetishistic transvestismThe wearing of clothes of the opposite sex principally to obtain sexual excitement and to create the appearance of a person of the opposite sex. Fetishistic transvestism is distinguished from transsexual transvestism by its clear association with sexual arousal and the strong desire to remove the clothing once orgasm occurs and sexual arousal declines. It can occur as an earlier phase in the development of transsexualism.Transvestic fetishism'

A paraphilia, which what AGP is, takes over someone's entire life. It erodes boundaries and their capability to make logical decisions and brings harm not just to the person who has it but other people to. Often there is also a combination of a personality disorder or other paraphilia.

Stella O'Malley argues otherwise and states that AGP can be episodic rather than fully invasive of someone's life. (I don't comment on this.) I've started at the spot with the preamble that leads into this claim.

I’ve just seen a clip on Twitter where O’Malley claimed that butch lesbians are basically female AGPs. I’m starting to think she’s now making stuff up to fit some narrative she’s decided upon.

x.com/OhShitItsJudith/status/1756214970994295255?s=20

This wasn't meant to be a debate specifically about AGP, more about fetishes as a whole and how we manage them as a society.

It feels like the current approach is to ignore them and act shocked when fetishists harm women. Even worse, with porn etc, it's almost like some of these things are celebrated now (gimps at pride week, celebration of the bravery of Hayton/Grayson Perry) or there is pressure on women to accept them ("don't kink shame")

One of many startling points in that whole interview and conversation. You know, the one titled, Have the gender critical feminists gone too far?

And now we're here. O'Malley claiming that there were many passing TW at the conference whom the interviewer hadn't clocked. That butch lesbians are a different expression of AGP than the one to which we're accustomed.

I'm no vet expert in such matters but I can't escape the feeling that I'm being Foucault-ed with language and different realities.

That's grand. I could happily ignore all of this if it were not for the impact of these alternate realities on discussions in the public sphere and the consequences for others who are compelled to accept these as their reality.

I don't know the alleged "GC feminists" who were the topic of that discussion. I'm aware of the hyperbolic language that is now styling anyone who doesn't use courtesy pronouns as "ultra" and "extremist" so it's hard to tell what's going on.

I keep coming back to Havel's greengrocer. And Solzhenitsyn.

Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient;' he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4382551-Live-not-by-lies-Solzhenitsyn-no-tambourines-involved?reply=112695991&

I don't think anyone is shocked when women and children are harmed, its the main reason we had social contracts for single sex spaces in the first place.

Men have fetishized gender roles, which so often involve them keeping 'their' women and children at home where they are 'safe', or keeping them covered up and 'decent' when in public.

To return to your questions, OP, no, I don’t think we can stop men (or women) from having fetishes. This is from my own personal experience, which I will share, in the hope that it will help others understand.

I have a very odd sexuality. It’s not technically a fetish as a fetish requires an object, and my kink is for a bodily function that has nothing to do with sex and isn’t even remotely considered in most people’s ideas about sex. It’s not about urinating or defaecating or anything commonly considered kinky. It isn’t hiccups but think along those lines. From now on in this post, I will use hiccups to represent my experience.

I can remember as a young child, gaining an odd kind of enjoyment when a friend had hiccups. I didn’t recognize it as sexual at that point, but the experience of liking it for no reason was definitely there from very early on. I know this as I had a friend who hiccuped often, but that friend was only there before I reached puberty. I would also instigate hiccup games when very young as I had no concept that it was odd.

When I reached puberty, I started to fancy boys, but really only became sexually aroused when thinking about hiccups. I would imagine the people I fancied, having hiccups because that was what turned me on. In addition, if a girl had hiccups, I would also become sexually aroused, not because I wanted to have sex with her, but because the arousal was completely beyond my control. I had no desire to interact sexually with the person though.

Because it was so fundamental and because I grew up with it, I assumed for quite a while that it was normal and that others felt the same, and it only gradually dawned on me that it wasn’t.

As an adult, in sexual encounters, I could occasionally reach orgasm without thinking about hiccups, but mostly, I had to resort to imagine hiccup scenarios in order to get there. If I was masturbating, that was what all the scenarios in my head were about.

Even now, though I’m not sexually aroused often following menopause, if I do masturbate or if I am turned on, it will inevitably be related to hiccups and not another person or body part.

So, in short, it’s been a fundamental part of who I am, from the earliest times I can remember.

Frankly, it’s highly inconvenient. I’d much rather be turned on by something more normal, but it’s also not something I think I can change. I have no control over my arousal, only over my reactions to it.

Having it available on the internet did drive its importance in my life. For a while I interacted with others who had the same kink and it did mean I focused more on it, but not interacting doesn’t make it go away.

So I can believe that AGP could be formed very early and feel very fundamental. I think that men who engage with others with the same feelings on the internet are more likely to exacerbate their feelings and are more likely to act on them in public. I think acting on your kink and being encouraged can drive you towards a more addictive behaviour pattern and make you more likely to act inappropriately.

I don’t think you could entirely get rid of the base feelings if they are as pervasive as mine were and are. What you can do, is make it clear that acting on those sexual feelings in public, or worse, with a person who can’t consent, is entirely inappropriate and that there is no excuse.

However hard you feel it is to hold that beach ball down, holding it down is exactly what you should be doing if it is driving you towards inappropriate activity that has an impact on others.

Thank you for sharing this. I was about to comment, for the benefit of the pp who stated that women don’t have fetishes, that I definitely have a fetish. And having spent some time in the past on the BDSM scene, I have met many other women with fetishes.

Your description of how you have experienced your fetish, from an early age and in adulthood, is very similar to how I have experienced mine (although my kink is of a more conventional and common type - albeit in some ways less acceptable, as it involves violence and lack of consent).

I think it is incredibly unhelpful to make broad generalisations about male and female sexual urges.

Depends if the fetish is predicated on non consent or not. I don't care what consenting adults do with each other.

But consent can be a bit more complex than it seems on first glance. 'Full and informed' requires context .

Agreed. Although for what it’s worth, my experiences with men on the BDSM scene (who were self-proclaimed sadists) was nothing other than positive. They completely respected my boundaries and never broke my trust.

Well speaking from my (Pre Marriage) experience of the BDSM scene, I can tell the OP that there are plenty of women who fully enjoy living out their kinky fantasies, so it's definitely not an exclusively male thing .

@Elspyth I don’t think you can clearly define the difference between a kink, fetish or paraphillia. I think they are a part of a spectrum for each paraphilia.

Voyeurism is a good example as it’s about getting sexual pleasure from seeing other people naked or watching them have sex. Page 3 or playboy is one end of the scale but it still involves getting sexual pleasure and therefore is a paraphillia.

Lia Thomas is a good example of two separate issues. The desire to win and be an Olympian is a factor in why Lia wanted to race against women as they were not good enough to beat male competitors. Fairness was not a factor in Lia’s thinking.

Lia also allegedly had paraphillia’s. Lia could have used the mens changing rooms but as an alleged voyeur and exhibitionist they chose to use the women’s changing rooms. This meant they were getting sexual pleasure from observing women getting changed and from exposing their male genitals to the same women. Had Lia not put on the cloak of TW they would have been arrested and charged.

I don't think it is exclusively male; I think far more men have fetishes and compulsive sexual behaviour that harms others though.

I'm interested as to how we manage it as it appears we mainly don't except by criminalising people.

I’m sorry “upskirting” and similar disgusting behaviours are not “festishes.” They are perversions. Those that enjoy doing that to women are fucking perverts let’s not normalise these things.

What's the difference between a fetish and a perversion?

I’d say perversions make someone a pervert. You know like things that are a crime like taking pictures up women’s skirts. Festish is something done consensually or not considered a crime or deeply offensive. If I was with a partner who said they had a foot fetish and liked looking at women’s feet I wouldn’t be offended or concerned. If he said he liked to go round taking pictures up women’s skirts I’d call him a fucking pervert and dump him on the spot. Are you a bloke by any chance?

Men who are sexually healthy don’t have fetishes. They are attracted to sexual triggers, sure, some things like high heels, for example echo certain curves of a woman’s body, which are hard-wired to turn men on. The difference between a fetish and something other than a sexually appealing person, which turns someone on, is that a fetish is something the person gets off on more than they do sex, or the other persons, it/themself. It replaces sexual connection and they end up ‘needing’ the fetish object or activity or else they can’t get off. Its a difference between experimenting and dependence.

The ‘beachball’ thing that many men live with is a feeling of frustrated sexual desire. I remember once seeing a middle age man looking at a barmaid - dew-fresh and young- beautiful, I made eye contact with him and his face was tortured - he looked almost like he wanted to cry, because he knew he could never touch her - she looked straight through him and he just looked down and shook his head in self-pity. Many men manage their sexual frustration by practicing musical instruments for hours, or something else creative or useful so they don’t just wank themselves into oblivion.

I think, like most people, do what you want but don't harm anyone. Histrionic personality disorder makes men think it's ok to do how they feel regardless of harm.

I think fetishes are perversions. They are a perversion of sexual desire and interest.

Upskirting and other non-consenting fetishes are criminal acts - sex crimes and they are also perversions.

Foot fetishes are least troubling because IME they are pretty common on some level, but if @wellhello24 you found your partner masturbating over your shoes instead of making a sexual move on you, I’m sure you would find this perverted.

so they don’t just wank themselves into oblivion

wank stations a la Dignatas

the devil makes work for idle hands so get off while you get off 👍🏼

those beachball guys don’t stop at letting the beachball float up where everyone can see their fetish tho do they?

they aim that beachball at women & children to bounce it off their heads and involve us in their fetish/paraphilia regardless of the harm it causes us

wanking themselves to death is more than many of them deserve frankly

"Upskirting and other non-consenting fetishes are criminal acts - sex crimes and they are also perversions."

I suspect that there is a strong cross-over between these acts and, for instance, shop-lifting or graffiti. Yup, upskirting etc is awful for the victim, but is it sexual, or the thrill of the forbidden? Maybe people start when they are kids with shoplifting and if they aren't caught, push the boundaries? Or is a crime like shoplifting an indicator of worse behaviour in the future?

Shoplifting doesn't involve dehumanising another person or violating their boundaries.

I do think men experience their sexuality somewhat differently than women, in general. For one thing I think it can be much more intense than is typical for women. I have a conversation once with a male friend about this, and he told me that the year he was 14, he was sexually attracted to every female teacher in his school. Whether they were thin or fat, strict or nice, young or 65 and about to retire. They were all fascinating in some very female way. I think that's not especially typical of women.

As far as fetishes - my theory is that it is related to some kind of mechanism by which men absorb culturally mediates sexual cues or have sexual bonding experiences. And this can be triggered by a variety of things, especially but not always things connected to sex. And usually fairly young, and not by any kind of design. So in a way it reflects an innate sexual capacity, but it's a sort of misfire. I'm basing this mainly on descriptions by people who have fetishes of some kind which seems pretty consistent.

I think it makes sense that humans, whose are social and have a very adaptive social structure including many sexual and marriage practices in different cultures, would need some way for their physical sexual response to be attuned to the cultural environment they happen to live in.

I think women have this to some extent but it's much less closely tied. Men need to have a strong enough sexual response to actually have sexual intercourse, and in many cases initiate and maintain a goal oriented pursuit of a sexual partner. It's not, from a reproductive standpoint, as necessary for women to be so sexually motivated. So maybe just less likely to go wrong.